The Strikes Thread

[bonzosbeard]

Is that not how inflation works?

Probably not because some things actually go up more.

Wetherspoons Wiltshire ham egg and chips going from £4.40 to £7.10.

And ask anyone having building done if prices are not at least 25% up on last year!

Shame about ham and eggs though, was one of my faves.

[YorksHammer]

Take a band 5 new nurse starting in 2015, by 2022 their pay would have increased by 34%, well above inflation. A new starter in 2010 that didn't ever get to band 6 in those 12 years would have had a pay packet 50% higher than the day they started.

If you're not asking a question, it doesn't have a question mark.

The above is, I think, looking at a newly qualified nurse gaining experience who then gets an increase in salary as a result of that experience. A band 5 nurse starts on £27,055, with 2-4 years experience will earn £29,180, and the band tops out at £32,934. I might have misunderstood your intent, though, not sure where your numbers have come from.

Band 6 starts at £33,706 and rises to £40,588 with 5byears experience.

https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/a-nurses- ... A332%2C934.

Applying inflation from 2010 to 2022, the starting nurse salary should be £28,819.31 (https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetar ... calculator). That's ~7% more than the current starting salary, assuming my maths is right.

Same process, the top end of band 5 was £27,534 in 2010. Apply inflation and it should now now be £37,472.19. That's 13% more than it is now.

2010 nurses pay taken from here - https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... PADYjt9cY8

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

If you're not asking a question, it doesn't have a question mark.

The above is, I think, looking at a newly qualified nurse gaining experience who then gets an increase in salary as a result of that experience. A band 5 nurse starts on £27,055, with 2-4 years experience will earn £29,180, and the band tops out at £32,934. I might have misunderstood your intent, though, not sure where your numbers have come from.

Band 6 starts at £33,706 and rises to £40,588 with 5byears experience.

https://www.nurses.co.uk/blog/a-nurses- ... A332%2C934.

Applying inflation from 2010 to 2022, the starting nurse salary should be £28,819.31 (https://www.bankofengland.co.uk/monetar ... calculator). That's ~7% more than the current starting salary, assuming my maths is right.

Fair enough let's say it was rhetorical

If they have 2-4 years experience they didn't start on 27k though.

If they started in 2010 and are still band 5 they would have been on 21k and will now be on 32k. That's not a 19% real terms cut it's a 50% increase.

The starting salary is a different argument to the one being made by the unions of average nurses pay. Starting salaries have gone up less than inflation but someone starting today on that salary can't really say they have had a below inflation rise over the last decade can they? (That bit is a question lol).

[mumbles87]

Fair enough let's say it was rhetorical

If they have 2-4 years experience they didn't start on 27k though.

If they started in 2010 and are still band 5 they would have been on 21k and will now be on 32k. That's not a 19% real terms cut it's a 50% increase.

The starting salary is a different argument to the one being made by the unions of average nurses pay. Starting salaries have gone up less than inflation but someone starting today on that salary can't really say they have had a below inflation rise over the last decade can they? (That bit is a question lol).

If they were on a pay freeze inflation has eaten into their reward for gaining experience and staying loyal to the NHS with incremental increases ..

So whilst it looks on paper as a rise it's just standing still as a reward for loyalty

Their claims are still valid however you dress it up

[RichieRiv]

If leave / sick pay, etc hasnt improved whilst they have been employed as a nurse etc why would it be brought into pay?

Yes if they said right you can have 5% rise and 1 week extra leave a year then id agree

But if levels are the same as 10 years ago it's nothing to do with % pay rises

The point that you missed in such a spectacular fashion that Marlon Harewood would be embarrassed, is that it's not just about pay - it's about conditions, which differ across the public sector and whatever industry you work in.

[mumbles87]

The point that you missed in such a spectacular fashion that Marlon Harewood would be embarrassed, is that it's not just about pay - it's about conditions, which differ across the public sector and whatever industry you work in.

Yet if it hasnt changed it doesn't need to be brought into the discussion.

You are litterally adding a caveat that isn't required.

[RichieRiv]

Probably not because some things actually go up more.

Building materials have been going up for donkey's years. Access to cheap money has allowed people across the housing market to refurb, add extensions, loft conversations, landscaping etc. Inflation in building materials has been caused by good old-fashioned supply and demand, then hastened by Covid - most timber mills in the US and Canada shut down expecting the constructions market to collapse, which it didn't. Now labour costs have increased. Round here a pre-covid bricky would be asking for £180-200 a day. They are now asking for £280-350. Why? Because they enjoyed the lockdown so much they don't want to work as many days a week, but don't want to hit their pocket.

But do building materials feature in a CPI/CPIH basket of goods? Only:

Ready mixed filler
Varnish
Ceramic tiles
Medium density fibreboard (MDF)Wallpaper
Paint - gloss/emulsion
Shower head
Paint brush

Oh and fees charged by plumbers, sparks, chippies and toshers.

[RichieRiv]

Yet if it hasnt changed it doesn't need to be brought into the discussion.

You are litterally adding a caveat that isn't required.

Again you are missed the point.

What was it Mark Twain said?

[mumbles87]

Again you are missed the point.

What was it Mark Twain said?

But re reading what you posted again all these conditions were there before so even if they asked for a 10% rise to match inflation why should existing benefits be taken into account when they haven't increased?

So unless their pension % has gone up and their leave it can't come into pay rise talks

Unless of course rather than a rise they are offered more leave or less working hours but kept on the same wage..

Or you mean fire fighters deserve say 10% and nurses 9 due to differences in leave etc

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

If they were on a pay freeze inflation has eaten into their reward for gaining experience and staying loyal to the NHS with incremental increases ..

So whilst it looks on paper as a rise it's just standing still as a reward for loyalty

Their claims are still valid however you dress it up

They weren't on a pay freeze if their pay went up.

[mumbles87]

They weren't on a pay freeze if their pay went up.

Pay rises and incremental increases are different

Going from bottom of band to top of band due to experience isn't a payrise ...it's earning your way up

Same as if you go up a band it's promotional rise not awarding pay increase

Entirely different matters

Its like saying my apprenticeship 11k wage I got a massive pay rise to now .. yet when I qualified I was several grades below what I am .

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Pay rises and incremental increases are different

Going from bottom of band to top of band due to experience isn't a payrise ...it's earning your way up

Same as if you go up a band it's promotional rise not awarding pay increase

Entirely different matters

Its like saying my apprenticeship 11k wage I got a massive pay rise to now .. yet when I qualified I was several grades below what I am .

Does their salary go up? What do they have to do to earn it? How many don't get the increase?

[mumbles87]

Does their salary go up? What do they have to do to earn it? How many don't get the increase?

Its part of their contract. Yearly increments until they reach top of band for experience and loyalty. Encourages people to stay.

Now when you get top of band your wage doesn't increase.

So yes it's a pay freeze.

Two entirely different subjects.

[bubbles1966]

What was it Mark Twain said?

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Now when you get top of band your wage doesn't increase.

So yes it's a pay freeze.

So a nurse who started in 2010 on 21k and topped out at band 7 of her starting grade now earns 32k and your case is she hasn't had a pay rise?

[mumbles87]

So a nurse who started in 2010 on 21k and topped out at band 7 of her starting grade now earns 32k and your case is she hasn't had a pay rise?

Indeed. She has earned her way to top of the band. Where as what's the start of band 7? That's the comparassion you need to make. 2010-2023 what's the difference?

Her 11k "increase" how much been eaten away by inflation?

[SammyLeeWasOffside]

Indeed. She has earned her way to top of the band. Where as what's the start of band 7? That's the comparassion you need to make. 2010-2023 what's the difference?

Her 11k "increase" how much been eaten away by inflation?

Can she spend this extra money on food and heating and stuff? As her pay hasn't risen has her employers pension contributions not risen either.

Someone goes to see their boss for an annual appraisal. Boss says you've done well this year here's an extra £1000 in you salary. That's not a pay rise?

It's a 50% increase in pay so I'm guessing not enough to qualify as a 19% real terms cut.

[mumbles87]

Can she spend this extra money on food and heating and stuff? As her pay hasn't risen has her employers pension contributions not risen either.

Someone goes to see their boss for an annual appraisal. Boss says you've done well this year here's an extra £1000 in you salary. That's not a pay rise?

It's a 50% increase in pay so I'm guessing not enough to qualify as a 19% real terms cut.

Sorry but you aren't understanding. Incremental increases that form part of their contracts are not Pay rises. That's why when on a public sector pay freeze increments were still able to be awarded because they are not part of a payrise.

Its a reward for experience and loyalty.

You can't compare it to a payrise as they should be getting them at the same time.

You never answered the question aswell. What's the difference between bottom of band 7 between 2010 Nd now? That will show the pay freeze more than skewing the figures by not comparing apples with apples.

Going up bands isn't a rise either it's promotion.

Promotion isn't a rise it's a different grade.

It even says on the figures "Years until eligible for pay progression"

That's not a pay rise it's progression

https://fullfact.org/online/september-2020-nhs-pay/

There is your 19% no? 2020 they fullfact checked it to be 9% pay drop

Since then inflation has risen by 10% so there's your 19%

[chelmsfordhammer91]

So is the start of band 7 the same pay now as the start of band 7 paid in 2010 then?

Genuine question, in the private sector you generally have monthly (scored) appraisals based on key metrics/objectives. The overall annual scoring works in bands to determine roughly what your pay rise is (if any!)

Is that the same generally for public sector workers?

[mumbles87]

So is the start of band 7 the same pay now as the start of band 7 paid in 2010 then?

Genuine question, in the private sector you generally have monthly (scored) appraisals based on key metrics/objectives. The overall annual scoring works in bands to determine roughly what your pay rise is (if any!)

Is that the same generally for public sector workers?

We don't have incremental increases, we have bands in my grade but they don't award pay increases up the band (except on the met line as a bribe) basically our band is x to y and everyone is on x and never goes up

But if someone is on more money and comes in they go top of band and you can't catch em

However the met district circle and Hammersmith to get their grades to stay because it's new room controlling all 4 lines they had to bribe them with moving them to top of band (no doubt in about 5 years we will all suddenly move up the band as it will be deemed unfair, especially when our lines work load beats all 4 lol)

My wife however in a school does have incremental increases

She was top of band at old school and is now bottom of band at new school so can get them again

Once Ur top of band that's it until you move up the scale so yes it's a pay freeze if you stay in same role for many years at top of band