The Sunak Government 2022-

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MB
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by MB »

Didn’t he want to abolish it?

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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by bubbles1966 »

YorksHammer wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 8:50 pm Yes, after 12 years of Tories being in power. To which you responded with a list of things that were 'left' by the Government before, things people regularly when damning the legacy of New Labour.

The truth is that New Labour failed miserably to protect the country against global financial problems by letting the city go unregulated far too long. The Conservatives have subsequently failed over 12 years to get the country back to anywhere near pre-Crash levels* economically.

Personally I have little faith that either Sunak or Starmer will succeed where the five PMs since the crash have failed. I'd rather vote for neither of them if there was a viable alternative that fell in line with my political beliefs.
Pre-crash?

The whole thing started going wrong the minute Brown stopped doing what Ken Clarke had laid down.

Brown was the original sinner who started committing to spending levels that taxes would not cover at the wrong point in the economic cycle. He was the original one who humoured the public playing Chuckaway Charlie without being honest enough to get them to pay for what was wanted. Everything follows from that.

And by the time he was finished , the annual deficit was 10% of the economy - equivalent to £240bn a year today. It wasn't even as though it was cyclical recession spending that automatically corrects itself during an upturn , a huge chunk of it was structural overspending on bloated, inefficient public sector activity.

He started the runaway train that's still rolling. Tories did ok applying the brakes up to 2019, but they're in real difficulties now.

The last year or so of Tory budgets have been indistinguishable from the sort of claptrap that Brown indulged in. That's why their support has fallen away.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Monkeybubbles »

bubbles1966 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:21 pm The last year or so of Tory budgets have been indistinguishable from the sort of claptrap that Brown indulged in. That's why their support has fallen away.
That's really not why their support has fallen away.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by smuts »

The Tories slumping in the polls is down to their Brown like budgets?

Right oh.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by bubbles1966 »

Sorry. WTF was I thinking?

Tory voters are well known for their love of tax rises and expensively run, piss poor public services. Silly me.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by YorksHammer »

Maybe it's just perception, but certainly pre-2008 it felt like we were in a good place as a country.

Covid has wiped out the progress on the deficit (and then some, it's now at record levels) and Cameron/Osborne borrowed to pay it down during their spell in charge, so our debt is now over 100% of our GDP. On those two metrics alone, the country is - fiscally - worse off. The OBR predicts the deficit will fall now we're out of the Covid measures, but not to a level where we can knock down the debt.

Austerity v1.0 led to more borrowing. Who knows where Austerity v2.0 will lead. All I know is that it's placing a further burden on the poorest in society who have already been hit over the past 12 years, while the top end earners have, and continue, to thrive.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by MB »

Thing is Yorks, people tend to focus on recent history but we've had cycles like this for a long time. The interval between boom and bust changes, but there is always something as governments spend what they can get their hands on in an attempt to stay in power.

Five years is seen as long term planning and I cannot see that changing unless the whole system changes and that seems unlikely.

If Labour get in at the next election then they will pick off the easy wins, probably get a second term and then go into steady decline until the Conservatives get another go to do the same.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Plashet Grove Pete »

MB wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:26 am
If Labour get in at the next election then they will pick off the easy wins, probably get a second term and then go into steady decline until the Conservatives get another go to do the same.
Meet the new boss; same as the old boss.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Monkeybubbles »

bubbles1966 wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 11:00 pm Sorry. WTF was I thinking?

Tory voters are well known for their love of tax rises and expensively run, piss poor public services. Silly me.
One-eyed nonsense.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

YorksHammer wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:03 am Maybe it's just perception, but certainly pre-2008 it felt like we were in a good place as a country.
That could be because a lot of the crap hadn't seen the light of day by that point. The financial crash didn't cause many of our problems it merely exposed them.

Of course booms feel like they were good times, the problems come when bubbles pop and the bust arrives.

There are huge underlying flaws in our economy and public service model imo and there have been for quite some time, certainly as far back as the 70s. Since then nothing we have tried has actually worked, some things have given short term boosts but have in truth weakened things overall.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by OFT »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:16 am That could be because a lot of the crap hadn't seen the light of day by that point. The financial crash didn't cause many of our problems it merely exposed them.

Of course booms feel like they were good times, the problems come when bubbles pop and the bust arrives.

There are huge underlying flaws in our economy and public service model imo and there have been for quite some time, certainly as far back as the 70s. Since then nothing we have tried has actually worked, some things have given short term boosts but have in truth weakened things overall.
:newthumb:
I agree about the long term thing sammy. A lot of what may have seemed like a good idea at the time(privitisations for example) IMO are catching us out many years later.
So it seems that it's likely, that any government will eventually 'run out of steam' no matter how much they may have presided over 'good times'. Regarding that and this current mob, after 12 years I for one am still waiting.

Clearly there is need for electoral reform, as written here and elsewhere many times. so, next question( and this is for everyone :grin: );-
In what way, if at all, might electoral reform introduce the 'longer term plan and thinking ' that may cure some of our ills ?
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Essexmaniac »

MB wrote: Tue Nov 22, 2022 9:18 pm Didn’t he want to abolish it?

Double standards. Same as many of the arch Brexiteers. Farage getting an EU passport via his ex wife?, Rees- Mogg re-registering his business to Ireland etc, etc....
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by OFT »

it seems regarding the European Court Of Human Rights, we really are 'all in it together'
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by SammyLeeWasOffside »

Essexmaniac wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:06 am Farage getting an EU passport via his ex wife?,
A couple of people have mentioned this in the last day or so. I can't find anything about it, is there a link someone can share. Thanks
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by YorksHammer »

No idea on validity of source, but - https://skwawkbox.org/2019/04/23/farage ... aving-one/
SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:16 am That could be because a lot of the crap hadn't seen the light of day by that point. The financial crash didn't cause many of our problems it merely exposed them.

Of course booms feel like they were good times, the problems come when bubbles pop and the bust arrives.

There are huge underlying flaws in our economy and public service model imo and there have been for quite some time, certainly as far back as the 70s. Since then nothing we have tried has actually worked, some things have given short term boosts but have in truth weakened things overall.
Which, I suppose, is why we look at the more 'radical' alternatives when looking to make a seismic shift - which then get knocked down by both the opposite 'wing' of politics and those in the middle. And probably are subject to massive market turmoil too. Truss was to the right wing what Corbyn was to the left wing - an attempt to shift the conversation to a 'new' style of governing. Unfortunately, neither works when you've then got a major percentage of people not just on opposite benches but on your own that won't accept the need to shift the conversation.

It's basically a settled system of turning the handle - and the moment someone turns up who doesn't want to do that, they get ridiculed by 90% of the people in Government and won't get anywhere.

Obviously, Truss and Corbyn are ideologically many, many miles apart. But had Truss been the leader of the opposition against Starmer in power I highly doubt her ideas would have gotten her anywhere and there would have been a lot of sniping from within her own party as well as an easy target from Labour. The unfortunate thing is that Truss was elevated to be leader of the country then tried to do these radical right wing things and it fell on it's arse. I daresay that had we had a Corbyn Government there would have been numerable issues within the markets. The difference between the two is that one was looking at freeing wealth while the other was looking at restricting it. Whereas under Sunak, and probably under Starmer, it would be a case of the status quo with minor shifts one way or the other.

I'm not really a swing voter - I've been raised a Never Tory and don't see that changing. But Labour aren't really speaking to me right now in the way they have done under first Milliband and Corbyn. If an election were called tomorrow I'd have a question over where my vote would go if there was an alternative to Labour more in line with me.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by delbert »

YorksHammer wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 8:03 am Maybe it's just perception, but certainly pre-2008 it felt like we were in a good place as a country.

There was also a blip of happiness early doors 2020, then China coughed all over the planet.......
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by mumbles87 »

delbert wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 1:03 pm There was also a blip of happiness early doors 2020, then China coughed all over the planet.......
was that post the floods in which boris ignored the locals

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-21528313
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -christmas

or when he skipped cobra meetings about the dangers of covid?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-meetings

there wasnt a blip of happiness there was a degree of ignorance
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by YorksHammer »

TWO Guardian links, Mumbles? You're damaging the averages!
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by Tenbury »

SammyLeeWasOffside wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 9:16 am

There are huge underlying flaws in our economy and public service model imo and there have been for quite some time, certainly as far back as the 70s. Since then nothing we have tried has actually worked, some things have given short term boosts but have in truth weakened things overall.
r
Agree with all that ^^

Personally speaking, I'm not in favour of 'growth', nor do I care much for Western pluralist political systems, but it seems self evident to me that building an economy based primarily on private debt where the collateral is just rising house prices, which in turn are based on a shortage of housing, is pretty much short term thinking(quite apart from being a disaster in terms of people at the bottom of the housing ladder.)
What's changed since the 70's?..well no one manufactures anything for a start.
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Re: The Sunak Government 2022-

Post by delbert »

mumbles87 wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 2:13 pm was that post the floods in which boris ignored the locals

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/ ... s-21528313
https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... -christmas

or when he skipped cobra meetings about the dangers of covid?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... a-meetings

there wasnt a blip of happiness there was a degree of ignorance
It was definitely a blip of happiness, or anyway, at least a level of optimism for those non Guardian readers living on higher ground. I remember it well, the end of austerity, the promise of pay rises and a new dawn of Brexit Britain. The it all went to a bag of ****......
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