⚽ Manchester Utd 1-0 West Ham Utd (30/10/22)

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il_martello_di_genovesi
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by il_martello_di_genovesi »

MB wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:29 pm But that is the point. We controlled the midfield really well and he still set up the winning goal.

Absolutely. I don’t understand the emphasis on how well we apparently stopped their midfield. We lost the game, Eriksen set up the goal anyway and it basically nullified our attack. An Xg of 0.26 up til the 80th minute. Still, congratulations on us having more blocked shots and stifling their midfield enough to lose the game.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by hammer1975 »

MB wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:29 pm But that is the point. We controlled the midfield really well and he still set up the winning goal.

Also hit a couple of lovely 30 yard balls over the top.

We had no one in midfield capable of anything like that and ultimately for all our midfield control he helped decide the game.
This is a really important point imo. Young Jack on Twitter is asking some really interesting questions;
-If a player plays really well for most of the game but makes one mistake that leads to a goal against us - did he play well?
-If a player plays pretty poorly but scores or assists - does that mean they played well?

Or words to those effects.

I think the answer depends, and for me it depends on the whole team balance.
I think we can afford to ‘carry’ one player who only has ‘moments’ in the game - when those moments are so key they help you win the game. We’ve currently got players in attack who have those ‘moments’ - but they don’t translate into goals or assists enough.
At the other end we have defenders who largely defend well for most of the game but are getting punished for their one ricket a game.

That balance needs to shift if we are to improve results.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Ironing Board »

il_martello_di_genovesi wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:34 pm Absolutely. I don’t understand the emphasis on how well we apparently stopped their midfield. We lost the game, Eriksen set up the goal anyway and it basically nullified our attack. An Xg of 0.26 up til the 80th minute. Still, congratulations on us having more blocked shots and stifling their midfield enough to lose the game.
That’s a losers mentality. Like a tennis player saying there’s no difference to losing in a tiebreaker vs 6-0 6-2
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by il_martello_di_genovesi »

Ironing Board wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:44 pm That’s a losers mentality. Like a tennis player saying there’s no difference to losing in a tiebreaker vs 6-0 6-2
Haha. You’ve been going on about ‘who did we play’ it was Liverpool and Man Utd and you have the front to say someone else has a losers mentality. Laughable :lol:.

A losers mentality is what your mate has when it comes to the top clubs away from home.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Tezza65 »

westhamlinnet wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 1:54 pm I think formals is a good number 10 . Moyes has done wonders for us but I am struggling as how Downes can be played as a number 10
Soucek should be dropped,because he offers us nothing at this moment in time.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Doc H Ball »

Actually, it's far more accurate to say that he has a 'must not lose' attitude.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Ironing Board »

il_martello_di_genovesi wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:51 pm Haha. You’ve been going on about ‘who did we play’ it was Liverpool and Man Utd and you have the front to say someone else has a losers mentality. Laughable :lol:.

A losers mentality is what your mate has when it comes to the top clubs away from home.
Nope. Going out and playing open and finding yourself three goals down before halftime is the loser’s approach.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

Doc H Ball wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:54 pm Actually, it's far more accurate to say that he has a 'must not lose' attitude.
You're right with that.

He's very much in the mind of "if we keep a clean sheet then that's at least one point guaranteed."
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by il_martello_di_genovesi »

Ironing Board wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:56 pm Nope. Going out and playing open and finding yourself three goals down before halftime is the loser’s approach.
So we’re that bad, that if we attempted to attack more in the first half, we’d find ourselves 3-0 down? Stop it, please…

Clearly you’re pleased that we kept it to 1-0 at half time, yet as I say again, you have the front to mention someone else and a losers mentality…
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Ironing Board »

il_martello_di_genovesi wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:00 pm So we’re that bad, that if we attempted to attack more in the first half, we’d find ourselves 3-0 down? Stop it, please…

Clearly you’re pleased that we kept it to 1-0 at half time, yet as I say again, you have the front to mention someone else and a losers mentality…
Yes. Because we would have got ripped to bits by a much stronger side.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Tezza65 »

il_martello_di_genovesi wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:00 pm So we’re that bad, that if we attempted to attack more in the first half, we’d find ourselves 3-0 down? Stop it, please…

Clearly you’re pleased that we kept it to 1-0 at half time, yet as I say again, you have the front to mention someone else and a losers mentality…
They always say the best form of defence is to attack.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by 'stone hammer »

Doc H Ball wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 9:55 pm I'm not sure that's right. For the better part of 70 minutes we often went sideways or backwards, players knocking it about whilst getting into shape rather than play a fast forward ball.
In those 70 minutes, we had 6 shots (out of 13) with 1 on target (out of 5). Hardly gung-ho I agree, but some attempts nonetheless.

Honestly, it made sense to me. Going all out is when Man U are at their most lethal; it made sense to keep it tight, make sure we're not 3-0 down at 80 minutes, and see if we can get a goal back.

Were we playing a bottom half team, I'd share the frustration.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by il_martello_di_genovesi »

Tezza65 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:04 pm They always say the best form of defence is to attack.
No one even suggested all out attack. That’s IB exaggeration. The same way it’s exaggeration to suggest that attacking more in the first half would see us concede 3 goals. Well, we conceded 1 and lost. He champions that fact and then accuses others of a losers mentality. It has to be a deliberate wind up, but my fault for getting involved.

For all the more corners and blocked shots we apparently had, our Xg was a lot lower than theirs and we were beaten. So while we could’ve got something out of the game fair and square, it’s not really a massively unfair result either.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by 'stone hammer »

DP
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by 'stone hammer »

hammer1975 wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 10:42 pm -If a player plays pretty poorly but scores or assists - does that mean they played well?
Yes, particularly if they play for one of the Sky 6. At least that's what Garth Crooks told me.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Tezza65 »

il_martello_di_genovesi wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:08 pm No one even suggested all out attack. That’s IB exaggeration. The same way it’s exaggeration to suggest that attacking more in the first half would see us concede 3 goals. Well, we conceded 1 and lost. He champions that fact and then accuses others of a losers mentality. It has to be a deliberate wind up, but my fault for getting involved.

For all the more corners and blocked shots we apparently had, our Xg was a lot lower than theirs and we were beaten. So while we could’ve got something out of the game fair and square, it’s not really a massively unfair result either.
I am obviously joking there.

Moyes's philosophy though is to keep it at 1-0 and have a go near the end.

Personally,I think Pearce had quite a say in that dressing room and we were more of an attacking team,when he was there.We were scoring 2 and 3's,sometimes 4's every week,now we are lucky if we see us score 2.

I think Moyes become a bit more defensive in the second part of last season and just MAYBE Pearce didn't agree with principle of what he was doing and decided to leave at the end of the season.

I would love to hear why he did leave.

I would love to hear what the players think of the approach this season too.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by bubbles1966 »

I didn't watch yesterday's game live because I was out and travelling so had to make do with Flashscore text Commentary for the first half, 5 Live for much of the second and caught the final 5-10 on TV.

Watching the Flashscore, I saw that we kicked off and wondered which full back we'd lofted it towards for Soucek to try to win a header, and was comforted to see that we'd done exactly that when I caught up with the replay - it's like a comfy pair of slippers.

Then the text commentary was telling me that we had a fair share of the ball but not many shots so I kind of assumed we'd sat back etc, but having watched the re-run we must have forced somewhere between six and ten turnovers deep in their half, only to fritter them away with our dear old friend 'poor execution' turning up to thwart us again.

Watching the playback I was astonished at how much space and time we had, yet we still wasted it. That's an issue of quality, not intent. You won't have shots if you pass the ball badly in that area of the pitch.

Aside from a three minute flurry of turnovers around the 15 minute mark , one of which resulted in a great block by Soucek, they didn't pose much of a threat. Their goal was a nice enough cross but it was about the forward attacking it , whilst our defender was static and a bit flat footed.

We improved with the removal of Scamacca and Downes, becoming more robust up top and more positive with our passing. Benrahma-Bowen-Fornals-Antonio is pretty much the front four that had us doing so well for much of the last two years and it's starting to feel like we need to go back to that.

Yes, we had some efforts and chances towards the end, but we shouldn't forget that Fred had a free header that hit the post.

All in all, it was a pretty decent overall effort from our lot but a very mixed bag individually. A point wouldn't have been unjust but that's the most we might have deserved.

I'd give a big shout out to Zouma and Benrahma - both did very well. I thought Bowen was lively as well.
Last edited by bubbles1966 on Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Bubbles Fortuna »

Pearce left because Moyes was too defensive and Pearce was the reason behind our good attacking displays.

Now that's some wild speculation!
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Tezza65 »

Bubbles Fortuna wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:27 pm Pearce left because Moyes was too defensive and Pearce was the reason behind our good attacking displays.

Now that's some wild speculation!
I did mean to put "MAYBE" in capitals.

Has you say, speculation.
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Re: ⚽ Manchester United vs West Ham United: match thread

Post by Doc H Ball »

'stone hammer wrote: Mon Oct 31, 2022 11:08 pm In those 70 minutes, we had 6 shots (out of 13) with 1 on target (out of 5). Hardly gung-ho I agree, but some attempts nonetheless.

Honestly, it made sense to me. Going all out is when Man U are at their most lethal; it made sense to keep it tight, make sure we're not 3-0 down at 80 minutes, and see if we can get a goal back.

Were we playing a bottom half team, I'd share the frustration.
Not necessarily disagreeing, but you said it wasn't under instruction and now accept it was Moyes' gameplan.
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