⚽ West Ham Utd 1-2 Crystal Palace (6/11/22)

[steps]

I think Fornals deserved a crack yesterday after having a very good game against FCSB, but this doesn’t seem to be a thing with Moyes. I remember Scamacca having a good game against Silkeborg then dropped for the following game.

If a player shows signs of hitting a bit of form in a Euro game then it maybe worth giving them a go in a following league game.

[Crouchend_Hammer]

If they were then you have to ask what the manager did to shore up that issue. And the answer is nothing. If the central midfield is a problem because of the way of play you don't just like-for-like change things up, you switch the system. Downes on for Benrahma (for example) would have allowed for a three man central midfield. Instead we went like-for-like - positionally - with every substitution.

Yes, i agree

What we needed to do was keep the ball better, but all he did at half time was switch the strikers which was absolutely pointless and wasted an attacking option from the bench

Downes for Soucek, or Fornals/ Lanzini/ Downes for Bowen were the first change to make

[Aztec Hammer]

Soucek has been below par this season, but he's far from the only one, and he's certainly not been as bad as people like to make out.

Like many, he appears devoid of confidence.

Don't underestimate just how important the upcoming break will be for a lot of our players.

I don't see how the upcoming break is going to solve his inability to control the ball as quickly as needed, find a teammate, pass to the teammate or travel with the ball up the pitch. His issues are fundamental footballing ones.

Soucek is a player who is better without the ball than with it. That hasn't been good enough for a season and a half now. Teams know how to play him in a way they didn't during his debut season. It's also a style of football that basically relies on luck or fortune with a cross landing onto his head or a knockdown falling to him in the box. It's similar to what we went through with Nolan.

[Aztec Hammer]

Exactlly. we should be over-committing in the last minute when drawing at home

If the opposition score then it is what it is, but i would hardly say we went all out in the last 20 minutes. certainly not as 'all-out' if we had been losing

the game ending 1-1 would not have made the whole situation any better, it would still have been an abject 90 minutes

It was the least bothered I can ever remember being about losing a game with the last kick of the ball. That says to me that I feel our issues are deep-rooted and 1 point or 0 point really makes little difference to me when it comes to solving them.

[Wilko1304]

It’s not at all relevant. Really, it isn’t at all. Especially comparing Soucek and Benrahma. Fabianski is having a better season than Scamacca.

You’re not asking me an honest question, you know that from the tone and pointed delivery, so let’s go with that. Has he been better than Bowen? Probably not as clear cut as you think, to be honest. Bowen’s won us a couple games this year and scored more goals. The myth and reality thing again.

Than Soucek? No. Soucek comfortably ahead, although some of that comes from the fact Benrahma is only now getting consistent starts, so the comparison is more flawed than it already was. There’s no point constantly highlighting his defensive stats because someone is going to point to a misplaced pass or make out he can’t play central midfield cos he’s actually got no feet.

There are massive systematic problems. Benrahma being subbed off in a game we weren’t playing well in and the reaction was childish. It was delusional and arrogant, too.

He earned his place and got given it. He wasn’t playing well, neither were we, and the manager made some notable changes. We looked better for Lanzini being on, Bowen was always going to stay on late chasing that goal.

Now, I’m not happy with the manager yesterday either, but I have a level of respect for him, the team and our players. Those that booed that sub and belittled Soucek (indirectly or not) clearly don’t.

[S-H]

I think many of our players are mentally and physically fatigued after last season's slog.

Maybe I'm clutching, but I think the break comes at a good time for us as a club.

[Aztec Hammer]

Well, we just disagree fundamentally on how we are viewing the players then. If I'm not asking you an honest question, that's probably because it seemed dishonest that you approached Benrahma and Soucek with the point of view that they are two players grouped together in cultish ways by the same posters.

I think Soucek has been our worst player this season. Quite comfortably so. I think he's a bad player.

I mention Bowen because there's clearly an agenda with the manager. I reckon most would say Benrahma has been a better winger for us this season than Bowen. But we know that only one gets dropped, only one gets subbed, only one gets criticised on a regular basis by the manager, often in a belittling way. It gets people worked up and ultimately provokes a reaction like the one we saw from the fans yesterday because they can see there is an inherent unfairness in it.

Bowen (and Soucek) do not get treated equally to Benrahma by the manager. It's obvious, and people don't like it.

I prefer Bowen as a player to Benrahma, but it's bull**** imo.

[Pob!]

I mention Bowen because there's clearly an agenda with the manager. I reckon most would say Benrahma has been a better winger for us this season than Bowen. But we know that only one gets dropped, only one gets subbed, only one gets criticised on a regular basis by the manager, often in a belittling way. It gets people worked up and ultimately provokes a reaction like the one we saw from the fans yesterday because they can see there is an inherent unfairness in it.

Bowen (and Soucek) do not get treated equally to Benrahma by the manager. It's obvious, and people don't like it.

I prefer Bowen as a player to Benrahma, but it's bull**** imo.

I've often been critical of Benny this season however you do make a valid point, Moyes uses Benny as a scapegoat and that's not cool..
Especially when so far this season Bowen is stinking up the place!!

[Billy Hunt]

Honestly, the Benrahma thing has become like a cult. Expecting to see buses driving around the stadium soon saying he scores 350 million goals a week if we just release him and let him thrive.

They appear the same people who would tell you Soucek is good for nought but heading and the odd goal.

Neither of these things are reality. Benrahma has played above previous performances and cannot put in the consistent 6/10 performance you need to make your inconsistent 10/10 moments worth having. He scored a great goal and was terrible for the rest of the game.

I thought Moyes’s comments post game were spot on.

Whereas most others on the pitch were terrible without scoring a great goal. Such as Antonio whose decision making and application contributed significantly to conceding the second goal. It was a poor team performance, pretty much through the lot of them yesterday.

I don't think it's anything like a cult, but for sure Berahma's a very divisive player it seems. To many (like those that sit near where I do) they occasionally, begrudgingly acknowledge his positives but pile on for every mistake. Some appreciate what he does, some focus on what he doesn't.

I like Benrahma, and I also like Soucek. I'm very uncomfortable with Soucek becoming the current whipping boy too.

I also thought Lanzini was OK when he came on yesterday.

That Benrahma was subbed rather than a very substandard Bowen was, however, puzzling for me

Cant agree reference Moyes comments though, hardly motivational to knock the player publicly is it?

[ChzMff]

Worst I've seen us for a long time. Palace more than deserved the win, playing some nice football and cutting through us with ease. It was like chalk and cheese watching how they progressively played out from the back from the goalkeeper compared to our botched attempts. They showed the fluidity, collective pressing and passing that we very much lacked. There was so little movement and running ahead of the ball. We've stopped (or has some of it been nullified?) everything that got us to where we were; namely the constant running and harassing, the cohesion between each third of the pitch and mayhem we caused from set-pieces.

- I am not convinced by Kehrer in any position
- Credit to Paqueta who kept looking to get on the ball, put himself about physically and covered a lot of yardage, even if things didn't always go the his way
- Be careful what you wish for when sarcastically applauding Soucek off the pitch. By no means a slight at Downes, but within a minute of him coming on he dwelled on the ball, had it pinched and Palace had a very good chance. We have got to where we are because of Soucek, not in-spite of him
- Strange decision to take Scamacca off at half time. He wasn't great but did not leave us much room to make a further attacking sub later on in the game
- How on earth did the referee think that was a penalty?
- We lack vocal leaders in the team
- So few tackles yesterday. Even if you are not going to win the ball, just put it on someone to let them know you're there
- Bowen has stopped all the things that made him such a threat: Non-stop running, ability to get back up and go again and desire. He now spends most of his time in a crumpled mess on the floor after a nothing challenge, whining at the ref and running at about 75% capacity
- Jordan Ayew is a pain in the arse. Not a top tier player but works his nuts off and causes problems

[Colours never run]

I think many of our players are mentally and physically fatigued after last season's slog.

Maybe I'm clutching, but I think the break comes at a good time for us as a club.

He's refreshed the Squad with 7 new players and has even played academy players in Europe too, to the point the first Team was completely rested this week. I think you are clutching...oowerr missus! :shock:

[il_martello_di_genovesi]

Take away Benrahma’s goal Yesterday and you are you left with absolutely 0 to shout about. 0. Not once chance, not one tackle to put Zaha into the stand. Nothing. Sure though, it’s the cult following and him that’s the problem. Benrahma has been decisive ever since he arrived, yet that whole stadium Yesterday were furious when he was taken off. It seems to be disliked from some quarters that he is actually starting to be liked by more…

[Crouchend_Hammer]

The fact we all have different views is what makes football the great spectacle and engaging past-time that it is

That said, I am very surprised that there are people who don't believe SOucek is a big hinderance for our team

But, as said, that is the beauty of the game

[hammer1975]

Eze looked good yesterday I thought.

Shame we couldn’t afford him …. And then bought the twice as expensive Benrahma from our favourite agent….

(Tin hat on and runs for the door)

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Take away Benrahma’s goal Yesterday and you are you left with absolutely 0 to shout about. 0. Not once chance, not one tackle to put Zaha into the stand. Nothing. Sure though, it’s the cult following and him that’s the problem. Benrahma has been decisive ever since he arrived, yet that whole stadium Yesterday were furious when he was taken off. It seems to be disliked from some quarters that he is actually starting to be liked by more…

Of course Benhrama will get a bit of a following because of the type of player he is
Lots of people like a maverick or an underdog, and that is what he is
Especailly when, outside of him, our team is very pedestrian, very pragmatic and very predictable
It may not be for everyone's taste, but plenty will root for him because of it

Same when Snoddy came back from the cold under Pelligrini

[Crouchend_Hammer]

Eze looked good yesterday I thought.

Shame we couldn’t afford him …. And then bought the twice as expensive Benrahma from our favourite agent….

(Tin hat on and runs for the door)

Benhrama is a better player IMHO
Impossible to make comparisons unless you put Eze in our team under Moyes, and Benhrama in their team under Viera

[BondsoBob]

The fact we all have different views is what makes football the great spectacle and engaging past-time that it is

That said, I am very surprised that there are people who don't believe SOucek is a big hinderance for our team

But, as said, that is the beauty of the game

It's such a Shame. I loved Soucek when he first came. Sond of his early performances were reminiscent of Billy Bonds in his hey day. Getting stuck in, taking one for the team and scoring some great goals.
I still want to love him but he's making it very hard these days.

[Wilko1304]

Well, we just disagree fundamentally on how we are viewing the players then. If I'm not asking you an honest question, that's probably because it seemed dishonest that you approached Benrahma and Soucek with the point of view that they are two players grouped together in cultish ways by the same posters.

I think Soucek has been our worst player this season. Quite comfortably so. I think he's a bad player.

I mention Bowen because there's clearly an agenda with the manager. I reckon most would say Benrahma has been a better winger for us this season than Bowen. But we know that only one gets dropped, only one gets subbed, only one gets criticised on a regular basis by the manager, often in a belittling way. It gets people worked up and ultimately provokes a reaction like the one we saw from the fans yesterday because they can see there is an inherent unfairness in it.

Bowen (and Soucek) do not get treated equally to Benrahma by the manager. It's obvious, and people don't like it.

I prefer Bowen as a player to Benrahma, but it's bull**** imo.

It’s a comparison that is apt, and I think you’d see it if you looked at patterns and post. Equally, they were subbed off at the same time and got the reactions from the same people.

There’s just many people I shouldn’t bother having the Soucek conversation with. The exaggeration is silly. He has been a problem in aspects of his play that, unfortunately, is a problem in the team as a whole. Replacing him with any single player in our squad is not the correction required, it’s not that simple.

They don’t get treated equally, Bowen and Benrahma, but they shouldn’t. One has a history of performing to the manager’s requirements, even when those things were probably limiting his goals. He came in and worked hard, took the substitute treatment, sacrificed himself and shone through, improved immensely and earned his manager’s trust.

Even this season, which has not been stellar, he gives the fundamentals in this team. Not only that, but he’s stylistically different and we have a few Benrahma-ish types. Cornet is closest to Bowen, but he’s injured, and the manager had already replaced the (awful) Scamacca with Antonio. It wasn’t and never has been about Bowen vs Benrahma.

Benrahma had made the case to stay on once in the first half. And was awful otherwise, didn’t look like getting back into things and had ready replacements on the bench.

It was a pair of subs in a game we were floundering in. The reaction to Benrahma was the imaginary Benrahma people make up, the reaction to Soucek was embarrassing for a player who has given so much in such a short time. It was an insult, first to Moyes and then to Soucek.

[sendô]

I didn't see the match as I was stuck at work. Went to bed at 9 and missed MOTD2. Saw some brief highlights of the goals and the "penalty". Saw some stats.

Nonetheless, I have some key questions:

- We apparently have a couple of the best midfielders in world football in Rice and Paquetta, and a dominant workhorse in Soucek, so how is it we are continually getting over run/dominated in midfield?
- We have a big squad with options in every position, so why are we playing the same players week in week out when they are clearly out of form/ineffective (mentioning no names before everyone wets their knickers).
- How are we being dominated at home so utterly against the Nigels?
- How is it that a team with the plethora of attacking talent that we possess, one that utterly dominated at Old Trafford for an albeit not long enough period can produce an xG of just 0.19 at home, even whilst scoring?
- when plan A does not work, what is our plan B?
- why do we have so little intensity?
- why do we only ever do a mid/low block tactic? Why do we hardly ever seem to press high and pressure teams, when we have the players for it - both in terms of personel and options from the bench if players become tired?

PS - I know the answers to all of these things.

[Douthy]

The shape is the issue

Without the ball we drop deep due to the lack of pace at the back. We sit off and occupy specific spaces on the pitch rather than press the ball.

When we win the ball in transition we occasionally look dangerous (ignoring yesterday).

When we have the ball at the back Rice and Soucek drop deep creating a 20 yard gap between whoever is up top and midfield. So when one of our CB or CM pumps it long we have no hope of winning a second ball.

The pattern of play when we start from the back has become ingrained and doesn’t work. Ends up with a full back under pressure who goes back to Fab who pumps it long and we lose the second ball.