⚽ West Ham Utd 0-2 Leicester City (12/11/22)

[ageing hammer]

Would help if our remaining defensive midfielder actually played in defensive midfield.

No coincidence since Rice started making these bursts we have been conceding for fun.

[Burnley Hammer]

Getting Kalvin Phillips or Eze would have solved a lot of problems.

Playing Rice in defensive midfield would have solved the same problem at less expense.

Against Leicester, we pretty much looked like this in terms of actual positioning...

------------------Scamacca

Benrahma
----Rice
------------------Paqueta-----------------Bowen

Cresswell----------------------Soucek---Kehrer

-------------Aguerd-----Dawson-----------

You can see why taking Soucek off for an attacking midfielder might cause a problem...

Now if we had 2 defensive midfielders, like I think we're supposed to, then sacrificing one of them wouldn't cause so much of an issue. In fact we'd be playing pretty much the same system that Leicester played for the whole first half.

[Burnley Hammer]

And maybe one of the reasons Paqueta is having a tough time is because he's being asked to play number 10 whilst at the same time attempting to plug gaps in our midfield which really shouldn't be there.

[MB]

And maybe one of the reasons Paqueta is having a tough time is because he's being asked to play number 10 whilst at the same time attempting to plug gaps in our midfield which really shouldn't be there.

It is the same for any "10" in that role for us. It always ends up a hybrid. Part of the reason I don't like our 4231.

Agree with your points re Rice, but we really struggle to move the ball if he doesn't push forward. Has been that way since he who shall not be named left. Too many of our players are at their best without the ball or in short bursts.

[Burnley Hammer]

Not that this is (likely) Rice's fault. Not unless he's going out there thinking 'f*** Moyes and his shitty defensive instructions'. I can't help thinking we're pandering to him though in his quest to be the new Stephen Gerrard. He's clearly, technically, the best player on the pitch for us by a country mile - but that doesn't mean that playing him like we are doing doesn't hurt us as a unit.

[Ironing Board]

If Moyes did what the crowd wanted he’d start Downes instead of Soucek.

Moyes couldn’t care less what the crowd want, which as frustrating as it can be, its exactly how it should be.

That would be foolish - Downes isn’t fit to lace Tom’s boots at this stage.

[Ironing Board]

"press high Moyes, too negative"
"He's too far up the pitch now Moyes, out of position"

"Take Soucek off Moyes and play Downes/Fornals etc"
"Just because Downes and Fornals are there Moyes it's no excuse for us to let a goal in every time Soucek isn't"

Exactly. Wish people would stick to rational, reasonable debate.

[Ironing Board]

Not that this is (likely) Rice's fault. Not unless he's going out there thinking '**** Moyes and his shitty defensive instructions'. I can't help thinking we're pandering to him though in his quest to be the new Stephen Gerrard. He's clearly, technically, the best player on the pitch for us by a country mile - but that doesn't mean that playing him like we are doing doesn't hurt us as a unit.

You think he would still be here if we weren’t offering him development? Tell him he’s stuck in a defensive midfield role and he’s off.

[Burnley Hammer]

You think he would still be here if we weren’t offering him development? Tell him he’s stuck in a defensive midfield role and he’s off.

...to a team that plays him in a defensive midfield role

[Ironing Board]

And maybe one of the reasons Paqueta is having a tough time is because he's being asked to play number 10 whilst at the same time attempting to plug gaps in our midfield which really shouldn't be there.

He’s struggling as he clearly isn’t used to the pace of the premier league yet. I hope it comes in time as he is capable of playing some cracking balls.

His all-around game needs to improve too. He was too lazy in terms of defensive work yesterday.

[Burnley Hammer]

His all-around game needs to improve too. He was too lazy in terms of defensive work yesterday.

He's struggled with a few things... but I don't consider him lazy at all.

[billtho]

It won't be long before Moyes faces the GSB firing squad and I nominate Ironing Board to take his own blindfold off and put it on Moyes on the big day.

[goa127]

I was at the game and I thought the performance in isolation was decent, but put in the context of our recent run, same old same old. whilst not claiming to be a football genius I can't really put my finger on the problem of our lack of goals, apart from our reversal of set piece success. I had a lightbulb moment today when watching Sky. We never used to play out from the back much. That meant our last defenders were ten yards further up the pitch. Now we play it around at the back and take 15 passes before we reach the halfway line. Is the answer more route 1? Chesea strangely have had an almost identical last 5 results to us despite changing manager. I haven't checked but we must be one of the last teams they beat (unfairly) in the league

[Ironing Board]

He's struggled with a few things... but I don't consider him lazy at all.

His pressing was dire and he let his runner go on the opening goal.

[Ironing Board]

...to a team that plays him in a defensive midfield role

So? I’m sure playing defensive midfield for Man City or Real Madrid would be more attractive.

[Burnley Hammer]

And just how much defensive work is he actually supposed to be doing? Is he a number 10? Is he a number 8? Or is he supposed to be doing the work of a defensive midfielder? I don't know the answer to that and I'm not sure he knows either as he's pretty much covering the whole pitch. He's often the player doing the most pressing from the front, he's back trying to plug gaps in defensive midfield, he's helping out the full-backs, he's back defending the near post at corners. Lazy he's not. I get why people may get frustrated when his passes don't come off but it's hard to fault the effort. He's doing just fine on that score. He just needs some time to adapt and a bit of confidence flowing through the team.

[jastons]

...to a team that plays him in a defensive midfield role

If / When Rice moves to Man City, Liverpool etc then he will be playing for a team with the majority of possession every game, who press high and play the game in their opponents half. He won't be restricted to a defensive role at all.

[Ironing Board]

I was at the game and I thought the performance in isolation was decent, but put in the context of our recent run, same old same old. whilst not claiming to be a football genius I can't really put my finger on the problem of our lack of goals, apart from our reversal of set piece success. I had a lightbulb moment today when watching Sky. We never used to play out from the back much. That meant our last defenders were ten yards further up the pitch. Now we play it around at the back and take 15 passes before we reach the halfway line. Is the answer more route 1? Chesea strangely have had an almost identical last 5 results to us despite changing manager. I haven't checked but we must be one of the last teams they beat (unfairly) in the league

Yeah, I think we would be better as a more direct side. Other teams just sit in their shape and it’s incredibly hard to break down. We would have to bench Scamacca though.

[Wilko1304]

If / When Rice moves to Man City, Liverpool etc then he will be playing for a team with the majority of possession every game, who press high and play the game in their opponents half. He won't be restricted to a defensive role at all.

He will, just their version. Which means shielding from higher up the pitch and being the, generally, deeper passing option, and the one to keep moves going and start them off again, whilst also protecting them from the counters.

He would, for example, likely be expected to have cut out that second goal counter

[Burnley Hammer]

If / When Rice moves to Man City, Liverpool etc then he will be playing for a team with the majority of possession every game, who press high and play the game in their opponents half. He won't be restricted to a defensive role at all.

He won't be... but right now he doesn't play for them and he's at a team that always have the minority of possession and are defensively frail. Personally I couldn't care less about his development as a more attacking player. If he wants to stay with us, that's fine - but he should be playing in the role he's best at. The role where he made his name. Once he leaves, he can enjoy being whatever he wants to be.