🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by jastons »

I haven't seen much of Sterling since he went to Chelsea but the way he played last night looked miles away from his best at Man City
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by El brooko79 »

The team mentality is engrained from 6 years of Southgate.
I don't see us suddenly switching into a more dynamic and imaginative style.

Again we will be relying on moments of magic from some very good players. Ironically we might find more attacking threat against better sides allowing us to play directly and exploit space.

It's a huge waste of the strength and depth of a very talented squad.
I don't think the players on paper are as good as the so called golden generation; but comparatively the strength of the usual superpowers is weaker than I can ever remember. Argentina, Holland, Italy, Germany are a shadow of themselves. Even Brazil, France and Spain are nothing compared to their former dominant forces. The great players at the likes of Belgium and Croatia are on their way out too.

This tournament is shaping up to be the same as the previous 2. Good progress on paper but could have been far more. The Waistcoat Trilogy.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Eggs'n'nuts »

As p**s poor of a game it was last night, there is a very tiny bit of me that understands that maybe Southgate and Co. did their homework on The USA and set up "not to lose".

If you're going to do this again during the tournament and/or going forward in future competitions Gareth, could you please let us know beforehand so we don't waste two hours of our lives watching it.

Many thanks,

Eggs'n'nuts.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by bonzosbeard »

Now the cold light of day is with us....

What a dismal show. Southgate is frightened of his own shadow.

Other teams will sniff our fear like Italy did and Croatia when we went 1 up against both.

Gareth team talk against better opposition is get a goal and play deep and hope we don't concede.

Bring back Terry Venebles FFS.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Bucksexile »

Sterling and Kane need to stay well away from the starting 11.

Sterling, lazy git.

Kane, thick git.

Back line is doing well. Need to bridge the gap in the middle.

Put Foden instead of Mount. Move Bellingham further forward and more central.

Bring Wilson and Grealish in to start.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by dasnutnock3 »

Southgate really needs a better tactician advising him. He’s an excellent squad & man manager, but is desperately short of tactical nous. There were obvious solutions to the problems his set up caused last night (overrun in midfield, not enough players available to receive the ball from defence, trapped by their high line etc), but he either didn’t know what they were or he was too afraid of losing the game to try them.

Why isn’t Steve Holland telling him how to adjust the team and tactics on the fly if Waistcoat can’t do it?
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... food-chain

pretty good review imvho

some snippets

On a night of stalemate with the USA Gareth Southgate’s limp team seemed content simply to stay out of trouble,

One point gained, or two hours lost? Certainly as England and the United States trundled their way to a fey and forgettable goalless draw, it was only natural to wonder how we might all have been spending this time more productively. Perhaps when the end finally comes, when we are lying on our deathbeds preparing to gasp our final breath, we will think back to that night we spent watching John Stones and Harry Maguire mesmerically passing the ball to each other, and quietly mourn the passing of time.

Stones and Maguire carried on passing the ball to each other, with Luke Shaw and Kieran Trippier occasionally chipping in. There was some more passing. Some more drumming. Empires rose and fell. The seas parted and unparted again. Everyone got a little older.

The whole occasion seemed ornately, magnificently pointless: everyone simply going through the motions, doing the things they knew how to do, content simply to stay out of trouble.

You can occasionally sense that ambivalence in England’s football. Do you go for the bold option, take the risk, invite contact, embrace the contest? Or do you simply pass the ball back to Stones and start the cycle again? Do you wear the armband and screw the consequences? Or do you step back from the brink, take your medicine, withdraw and regroup? Do you let Phil Foden loose or keep him on the bench for later? Part of the reason England have been so inconsistent in recent months is because they seem unsure of the right answers, unsure that there even is a right answer.

The back four had more touches (358) than the rest of the team put together. Afterwards, Southgate said they were “outstanding”. It is, as it ever was, a game of opinions.

England have players here with a thrill for a fight. Bukayo Saka, Jude Bellingham, Jack Grealish, Trent Alexander-Arnold, Marcus Rashford: these are risk-taking players at heart, players who want to express themselves, players unafraid of contact. But to win a duel you first have to want to fight it. On the field and off it, England’s approach to the World Cup appears to be to stay out of trouble for as long as possible. Well, we’ll see how that goes.

They gained a point here, and will probably qualify for the next round. But it’s hard not to feel that something important and essential has been lost somewhere along the way.

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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by bonzosbeard »

The first part of the guardian review above was brilliant.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Crouchend_Hammer »

The similarities between Englanf under Southgate and west ham under Moyes are striking

That article could have been written about us
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Denbighammer »

I think England looked desperately tired and the whole performance was flat. Only Maguire stood out and credit to him after the incredible amount of stick he has had this season.

The US didn't offer much either and I thought they got to about 60mins and decided a draw was enough for them. They are backing themselves to beat Iran and are assuming England will beat Wales.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by WCpete »

Eggs'n'nuts wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:56 am As p**s poor of a game it was last night, there is a very tiny bit of me that understands that maybe Southgate and Co. did their homework on The USA and set up "not to lose".

If you're going to do this again during the tournament and/or going forward in future competitions Gareth, could you please let us know beforehand so we don't waste two hours of our lives watching it.

Many thanks,

Eggs'n'nuts.
I agree. England didn’t need to win. They just had to not lose. The US really wanted the 3 pts. If you take the emotion out of it, Southgate got what he wanted.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

WCpete wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 5:55 pm I agree. England didn’t need to win. They just had to not lose. The US really wanted the 3 pts. If you take the emotion out of it, Southgate got what he wanted.
I understand where you are coming from Pete, but this is the WORLD stage. not just another London derby where you can pop on a train or bus to get there.

some people paid literally thousands (insert whatever currency you want) to go and support their team. not wishing to put down the US team, but honestly, he at least had a chance to say "the last game wasn't a one off." remember we've just come off of a disastrous Nation's League campaign.

yet when push came to shove, Southgate reverted to type.

that's not on for me, and I imagine loads more like me. I understand tournament play is much different in a way, to general league play. remember that BFS got hounded out of our club, quite rightly, for his "respect the point football."

saying that we were outstanding defensively, when a couple of inches lower from Pulisic and a scuffed McKennie and we weren't. Trippier was run ragged by Antonee Robinson all night pretty much.

I kind of felt that Southgate saying the boos weren't from England fans but from other neutrals in the ground, was almost tantamount to his "cupping his ear" moment and like Moyes, Gareth is quickly turning me off of his previously outstanding work with the entire England set up.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Samba »

e17 wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 10:02 amAlso a manager who chooses players based on favouritism and not form, so Eric Dier has become his very own Geoff Pike…
Very harsh on GP, Walth.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by SammyTheHammer »

Not going to be a popular opinion on here but I don’t think the talent gap is as wide as many assume with the US. They are no longer a squad filled with MLS players but rather a group of exciting young players from top European leagues. I think their starting 11 only had one MLS player. Don’t crucify me if that’s wrong - but lots of players playing across England, France, Germany, Italy etc..

Pulisic, Adams, Weah, Reyna, Mckinnie, Sargent, Arronson, Dest…there’s more talent these players than past US teams.

England undoubtedly has the edge - particularly when you start looking at squad depth. They played poorly and were outworked but let’s give credit where it’s due.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by DublinDave »

SammyTheHammer wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 pm Not going to be a popular opinion on here but I don’t think the talent gap is as wide as many assume with the US. They are no longer a squad filled with MLS players but rather a group of exciting young players from top European leagues. I think their starting 11 only had one MLS player. Don’t crucify me if that’s wrong - but lots of players playing across England, France, Germany, Italy etc..

Pulisic, Adams, Weah, Reyna, Mckinnie, Sargent, Arronson, Dest…there’s more talent these players than past US teams.

England undoubtedly has the edge - particularly when you start looking at squad depth. They played poorly and were outworked but let’s give credit where it’s due.
We need a like button on the World Cup thread for sensible & reasoned posts like this... :newthumb:
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Cuenca 'ammer »

SammyTheHammer wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 pm Not going to be a popular opinion on here but I don’t think the talent gap is as wide as many assume with the US. They are no longer a squad filled with MLS players but rather a group of exciting young players from top European leagues. I think their starting 11 only had one MLS player. Don’t crucify me if that’s wrong - but lots of players playing across England, France, Germany, Italy etc..

Pulisic, Adams, Weah, Reyna, Mckinnie, Sargent, Arronson, Dest…there’s more talent these players than past US teams.

England undoubtedly has the edge - particularly when you start looking at squad depth. They played poorly and were outworked but let’s give credit where it’s due.
not saying the USMNT is dog shyte, BUT.."on paper" we have more talent, although accept your explanation...

if we decide that the talent is not that far apart, that's where top top managers earn their corn.

see what's going on and make the necessary adjustments to make the difference.

without looking at it, if I accept there wasn't much to choose in the starting line ups, and if we look at where their players play and where our players play, we had more players playing at "higher level clubs" than their starting line up. AND our bench SHOULD have been far far better than theirs and that's where it can be won or lost.

unfortunately Southgate decided that it was "safer" to do what he did, than to take a chance and give say Foden an opportunity to change the game.


he chose not to, imvho.

the article I posted earlier summed it all up. our defensive players made more "successful" passes than the rest of the entire team put together. that's not on to me. either we lacked the will and desire to play forward or the forward players weren't moving enough. then make the changes.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by Samba »

SammyTheHammer wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 pm Not going to be a popular opinion on here but I don’t think the talent gap is as wide as many assume with the US. They are no longer a squad filled with MLS players but rather a group of exciting young players from top European leagues. I think their starting 11 only had one MLS player. Don’t crucify me if that’s wrong - but lots of players playing across England, France, Germany, Italy etc..

Pulisic, Adams, Weah, Reyna, Mckinnie, Sargent, Arronson, Dest…there’s more talent these players than past US teams.

England undoubtedly has the edge - particularly when you start looking at squad depth. They played poorly and were outworked but let’s give credit where it’s due.
Can't really argue with your post, Sammy. Compare them to the USA team of '94..
Pulisic alone is a very good player & nearly won it for you.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by sendô »

Yeah undoubtedly the US team has lots of good young players right now.

Though you have to observe that the US team playing with every player at their best, in a system designed to nullify England, and with England devoid of ideas because their manager has no plan or tactical nous, still could not beat England, and honestly but for Pulisic almost pulling off a cracking strike didnt really look that close.

This isnt a dig at the US btw, just an observation of the gulf from the tier 1 nations with top leagues to those middling nations relying on their players playing abroad.
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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by S-H »

sendô wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 11:35 pm Yeah undoubtedly the US team has lots of good young players right now.

Though you have to observe that the US team playing with every player at their best, in a system designed to nullify England, and with England devoid of ideas because their manager has no plan or tactical nous, still could not beat England, and honestly but for Pulisic almost pulling off a cracking strike didnt really look that close.

This isnt a dig at the US btw, just an observation of the gulf from the tier 1 nations with top leagues to those middling nations relying on their players playing abroad.
I agree.

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Re: 🏆Match #20: Group B - England 0-0 USA (25/11/22, 7pm)

Post by 'stone hammer »

SammyTheHammer wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 pm Not going to be a popular opinion on here but I don’t think the talent gap is as wide as many assume with the US.
I assume you're talking in comparison with England about the talent gap. While the US has certainly closed it, it's still a huge chasm imo.
SammyTheHammer wrote: Sat Nov 26, 2022 9:53 pm Pulisic, Adams, Weah, Reyna, Mckinnie, Sargent, Arronson, Dest…there’s more talent these players than past US teams.

England undoubtedly has the edge - particularly when you start looking at squad depth. They played poorly and were outworked but let’s give credit where it’s due.
Not meaning to have a dig, but when talking about US talent, if the 6th player in your list is Josh Sargent (promising player for sure) then you can really see how big the gap is.
A good thought experiment is always 'which of their players get into our squad?' I'd take Pulisic over Kalvin Philips. That's it for me.

The US were well worth the draw. It's hard to give too much credit however; England were unbelievably poor and unambitious. I do expect the US to beat Iran and qualify, maybe even top the group if England don't turn up again against Wales.
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