England Mens Cricket 2023

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sendô
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by sendô »

I've caught little of this what with it being over night, but as much as England seem to be playing exciting, no fear cricket right now, we've still got to be able to manage games to the end. You should never be in a situation where you enforce the follow on and then lose.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by PF. »

NZ are the world champions and haven't lost at home in a number of years.

We played to entertain and I was thoroughly entertained by watching. No complaints from me.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by Bend it like Repka »

Yes, but is it our duty to be the entertainment of world cricket?

I'm happy to be bold and innovative, but at the end of the day it is about winning too. There was a time when winning a series was hard work. Now we are throwing them away for the giggle of it.

India and Oz will not care one jot about the future of test cricket. They will aim to beat us by all or any means. Max Verstappen fans don't feel sorry Lewis was cheated, they still taunt and hate him now.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by sendô »

It's even worse that we did it in match two of a two test series.

Just bat them out of the game, make it impossible for them to win and then try and grind them down, knowing that win or draw the series was ours.

Honestly it's so naive doing what we've done. I'm all for entertainment but the England cricket team should not be making itself known for entertaining losses.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by PF. »

I value each and every opinion on this thread as it's more rational than the West Ham match day threads, for sure! :winker:

I personally think our recent record speaks for itself and I wouldn't agree with you at all that we're throwing away for the giggle of it. To me BILR, it seems that you're looking for reasons to be critical, and have been for a while. I'm trying hard to play the post, rather than the man here, but I have to be honest, you're making it tough going, mate.

It was you who said that Stokes shouldn't be in the T20 team (two innings would suggest that you were very wrong). It was you that said you're not convinced after the series win in Pakistan and a genuinely excellent 2022. I think it was you who said that said that the management team haven't learnt anything and it was you who criticised having four pace bowlers in Pakistan. You've been a consistent critic of our captain, too.

We went for the win, NZ fought back and deservedly won this test match (we did win the first of the series, let's not forget this). Silly dismissals can be viewed in most innings in hindsight (much like the positioning of a defender or keeper when we concede, but of course amplified in cricket as a mistake often means you do not have a second chance).

It feels to me like you're willing it to go wrong so you can have your moment - I guess I'm wrong but you come across as incredibly negative.

Let's see where we sit after the Ashes and perhaps at the end of the 2024.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by r99c »

Loftyhammer wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:31 am Didn't manage to get any Ashes tickets but have got one for the World Test final thing at Oval in June. No idea who might play though....anyone know who's in the mix??
Scroll down to League Table - ranked on .pct of points vs games played. Looking extremely likely to be Australia vs India (only other possible team is Sri Lanka but they're lagging well behind) but not confirmed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021%E2%8 ... ampionship
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by wolf359 »

sendô wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:29 am It's even worse that we did it in match two of a two test series.

Just bat them out of the game, make it impossible for them to win and then try and grind them down, knowing that win or draw the series was ours.

Honestly it's so naive doing what we've done. I'm all for entertainment but the England cricket team should not be making itself known for entertaining losses.
I agree with this fully, we could of (and should of) drawn/won that game. I love the general approach but there is still room for some sensible cricket (look at Root). We threw this away (not new for England) but the manner of it was so 'silly' really.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by Turns to Stone »

I don't disagree, but also I'm right behind the 'exciting cricket' values.

What I would say, is this is a young team with a young coaching set-up and they will all learn from last night. I'm glad they learned this lesson pre-Ashes. And if we're going to lose to anyone, I'd always rather it was NZ tbh.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by kenthammer »

Love watching this England team but think a balance has to be found between Bzball and sensible cricket.Some silly wickets lost over 2 innings which shouldn't have been.Stokes could have gone off for treatment and 2 fit batsmen could have just picked the runs off instead of trying to hit everything for boundaries.NZ are a good side but that test was there for the taking with better decision making
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by sword »

Playing Bazball, we'll occasionally lose; we mostly win, but the cricket is a joy to watch/listen so we the spectators always win. Come the Ashes, if we play the same way, we may win, we'll be used to it and get better at it; start playing safe like we used to, we'll more than likely lose the series - like we used to.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by smuts »

I still think we have big issues at the top of the order. Crawley still doesn't use his feet, Duckett is promising and Pope blows a bit hot and cold at 3.

If only Sibley could actually play at least one attacking shot every 5 overs as he could play the role of blocker to allow others to flourish perfectly.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by Bend it like Repka »

PF. wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:35 am To me BILR, it seems that you're looking for reasons to be critical, and have been for a while. I'm trying hard to play the post, rather than the man here, but I have to be honest, you're making it tough going, mate........

It was you who said that Stokes shouldn't be in the T20 team (two innings would suggest that you were very wrong). It was you that said you're not convinced after the series win in Pakistan and a genuinely excellent 2022. I think it was you who said that said that the management team haven't learnt anything and it was you who criticised having four pace bowlers in Pakistan. You've been a consistent critic of our captain, too.

It feels to me like you're willing it to go wrong so you can have your moment - I guess I'm wrong but you come across as incredibly negative.
Firstly I have no problem with you playing the man here, what you are saying is fair, and in some cases correct. :newthumb:

I have been asking myself, why after decades of watching England cricket, I'm not enjoying this period of success as much as other people. Maybe years of pain with West Ham and England just make it hard to accept winning. :crossed:

But actually I think the reasons are as follows.

1) I suppose I am a purist, and I'm struggling with the concept of turning test cricket into an elongated version of the white ball game, rather than a more refined battle. Of course I support bold captaincy, I was no Joe Root captaincy fan, I don't want dull snoozefests, but the notion England are saving test cricket in general with Bazball....well most people were loving test cricket before this party started, we were just fed up with losing! I loved test cricket, whether it was Monty batting out the draw in 2009 or Atherton not being killed by Allan Donald, and I feel this euphoria about us transforming the format is mainly led by short game fans who couldn't appreciate the patient side of the game.

2) As much as winning recent stuff is great, and not to be sniffed at, I'm far more worried about beating Australia and India. That to me is the be all and dwarfs everything else, so my concern for our approach is only really reflecting how I think it will work against those two sides. At present my negativity can't get past the fact that there is an overconfidence and naivety about our approach. I've listed all those doubts before, and I really do hope I'm wrong, because I can't take another tonking in the Ashes.

3) On the subject of the Ashes, people are bigging up how Bazball will make it so entertaining, as if the Ashes have ever not been so before!

4) Elite sport is about winning, it is not primarily an entertainment. The theatre and gigs are entertainment, they are not dependent on an end result. So to listen to a captain who has thrown away a test series say he was "blessed" to be part of that ending, well I don't think you'd get Steve Waugh or Ricky Ponting saying that. Maybe I'm being cynical, but I do feel Stokes and McCullum got to the point where they wanted to rip up every part of the rules book just because they could. There is a reason you bat the oppo out the game and in this case they got to ahead of themselves looking for the spectacular finish. Our bowers got tired and Williamson ground us down playing "boring" old fashioned test cricket. So were we entertaining or naive, or just being too damn clever? But like the nighthawk nonsense in the first test. I did say I'm not too concerned about this series but I have previously raised the issue of whether this mindset is now set in every test. Again, I'm looking at the Ashes, and how we approach that. Will we be concerned about making the winning choice, or the entertaining one? Looking at the way Stokes bats as captain, maybe you can see my fear that his mindset is too fixated on the latter.

5) There is also the Crawley issue. If I was Burns or Hameed I'd be pretty cheesed off because that guy must have photos of Stokes. Having a no pressure environment is great, but is there a too close pals act going on there, because their constant backing is incredible. Again, I'm looking at the Ashes, and we need the best 11 players, not a mates club.

Anyway enough for this evening. I just really want us to beat Australia, I don't want us to fall flat again. I hope this way works, I really do, and if so, I shall repent at the altar of the Church of McCullum. :pray:
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by smuts »

To be honest I agree with a lot of what Bendy says. I'm a big fan of Foakes but with 7 needed why take on the hook shot and expose Anderson? Stokes goes and then Root on 95 then swipes at one soon after bringing 2 new batsmen to the crease for example. I can't help thinking there was a bit of over confidence creeping in and Stokes should have been raging we lost that game after he enforced the follow on.

I'm all for being entertaining but I can't help thinking we've been a wee bit lucky facing some depleted attacks of late and going out trying to smash a fully fit fired up Australian attack out the ground could see it go horribly wrong.

Would love to be proved wrong...
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by westham,eggyandchips »

The usual fun vacuum is out in force.

Just enjoy something for what it is.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by Tenbury »

I'd like to address some of Bendy's points, which I very much respect, though largely disagree with.

1) 'People' weren't largely enjoying test cricket (IMO). Ashes tests were well supported, as we're most other tours in England, but worldwide that simply isn't accurate. On the sub continent, in the Windies, test cricket is dying on it's arse.
2) Agree in so much as being apprehensive about upcoming Aussie/India contests but at least we have some confidence having won a few games, it's not like they'd have been crapping themselves at the prospect of playing us under the old regime is it? Even if they aren't now.
3) Yes, the Ashes have always been entertaining (amongst my most prized possessions is my Sunday morning Edgbaston Hollis ticket from the one of most exciting couple of hours sport ever.... followed by one of the biggest piss ups..) But the following year, it was Sri Lanka.. no probs getting tickets for that.
4) Given my age, I'm much more likely to agree with this, but test cricket is unlike most other sports('cept Golf, and for me, that's a sport more about playing rather than watching) in as much as it (potentially) lasts 5 days. If, for instance, BFS grinds out a one - nil win against Burnley, we take heart in the result AND the fact that we only had to watch it for 90 mins. I'm not sure the modern sports fan has the endurance to do that for 5 days. So elite sport IS about the result, but if it doesn't entertain its no more significant than, say, indoor bowls.
5) Crawley.
I think the previous openers you mention should be p*ssed off because the old regime didn't give them a decent chance, you can't blame the present set up for that!! FWIW. I think the present ethos has been quite hard on batsmen like Crawley that have technical issues which are much more likely to be highlighted by a batsman (sorry, batter!) who's on the defensive as to one who's just going to spend the first hour blocking.

Stokes has taken some sh*t about his post match comments, but surely, at the end of the day, it's just a game.Given his MH struggles, I find that really refreshing. People (well me anyhow) enjoyed watching it, no one died... there's enough of that crap going on as it is.
Bendy, pls take this in the spirit it's meant, you clearly know your cricket :newthumb:
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by PF. »

Bend it like Repka wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 7:56 pm But actually I think the reasons are as follows.
Fair enough mate, we obviously don't see eye to eye on this however absolutely respect your opinion. What we do have in common is the burning desire to see Stokes lift the urn at the Oval in July. :newthumb:
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by westham,eggyandchips »

Bangladesh currently 133-4 in the first ODI.

Good to see Wood and Archer in the attack.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by Bend it like Repka »

Tenbury wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:36 am I'd like to address some of Bendy's points, which I very much respect, though largely disagree with.

1) 'People' weren't largely enjoying test cricket (IMO). Ashes tests were well supported, as we're most other tours in England, but worldwide that simply isn't accurate. On the sub continent, in the Windies, test cricket is dying on it's arse.
I agree worldwide there is a problem, but why is it our duty to be the ones to save that? Even more so, will us being super aggressive make any difference to test participation in the West Indies? I rather doubt it. English fans were loving test cricket anyway, it's for other countries to solve their issues not us.
Tenbury wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:36 am2) Agree in so much as being apprehensive about upcoming Aussie/India contests but at least we have some confidence having won a few games, it's not like they'd have been crapping themselves at the prospect of playing us under the old regime is it? Even if they aren't now.
I agree that confidence and belief is of course far better than not having any, so yes you are correct. However I think the Aussies will be watching all this and laying plans. Personally I think Starc and Cummings will be very excited at the prospect of us taking them on with a swinging duke ball.
Tenbury wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:36 am I'm not sure the modern sports fan has the endurance to do that for 5 days. So elite sport IS about the result, but if it doesn't entertain its no more significant than, say, indoor bowls.
You've highlighted my point. Modern fans have white ball cricket. If tests are not exciting for them, they can go watch something else. Test cricket has been around for a very long time, we don't need to be jazzing it up for the X box generation when they already have T20 and the 100

Tenbury wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:36 am Stokes has taken some sh*t about his post match comments, but surely, at the end of the day, it's just a game.Given his MH struggles, I find that really refreshing. People (well me anyhow) enjoyed watching it, no one died... there's enough of that crap going on as it is.
Well it is just a game, but as we all said with the Ashes, then it is not is it? Try saying it's just a game when we lose 3-2 to the sandpaper crew!
Tenbury wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:36 am Bendy, pls take this in the spirit it's meant, you clearly know your cricket :newthumb:
Mate, I'm loving the debate. Same as PF, both of you are being perfectly fair.
Last edited by Bend it like Repka on Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by Bend it like Repka »

westham,eggyandchips wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:37 am The usual fun vacuum is out in force.

Just enjoy something for what it is.
You of course, can always not read it if its too complex to understand. :wink:
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Re: England Mens Cricket 2023

Post by Bend it like Repka »

smuts wrote: Tue Feb 28, 2023 10:09 pm To be honest I agree with a lot of what Bendy says. I'm a big fan of Foakes but with 7 needed why take on the hook shot and expose Anderson? Stokes goes and then Root on 95 then swipes at one soon after bringing 2 new batsmen to the crease for example. I can't help thinking there was a bit of over confidence creeping in and Stokes should have been raging we lost that game after he enforced the follow on.
I watched the highlights last night and thought the same. I didn't realise how much we threw that away with the shot selection and how much time we still had left.
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