Ivan Toney

[Aztec Hammer]

When I heard the details of what he bet on, my initial thoughts were that the the 8 month ban didn't seem nearly harsh enough for the seriousness of his offences.

Then I thought that it's probably because the FA don't want to open a can of worms with more serious discipline (which I absolutely think it warrants) because of the manner in which they have allowed our sport to be infested with gambling.

They are worried about their role in it all and that being further brought into the light.

[3times]

And all the time the FA allow clubs to be sponsored by betting companies...........

[fmgod]

When I heard the details of what he bet on, my initial thoughts were that the the 8 month ban didn't seem nearly harsh enough for the seriousness of his offences.

Then I thought that it's probably because the FA don't want to open a can of worms with more serious discipline (which I absolutely think it warrants) because of the manner in which they have allowed our sport to be infested with gambling.

They are worried about their role in it all and that being further brought into the light.

I think this is on the money and probably far more widespread up and down the leagues, same with steroids in football, it will all be kept hush hush as in no-ones interest really to let it out

I've seen so many games in the last few years with beyond questionable incidents, the other year at Sutton for no reason the second goalkeeper came on at half-time, Sutton were winning, did keeps up in his area and gave away a penalty, it's still the oddest thing I've ever seen and has to be 100% match fixing, 4:20 onwards here

[szola]

Even worse that they have banned him from any football activities, like training with his (team-)mates. The last thing you want to see addicts to, is being pushed into isolation (again).

It's just an addiction regarding betting, or? It's not that training with the club will make him bet less/not bet
The amount of time he probably spendt on his phone while at the training ground should give him ample opportunity to make a few bets.

[westlondonhammer]

There's a fine line here though isn't there?

If they were to drop his ban altogether because he's an addict, how many others caught gambling will exploit that for their own gain?

Regardless of whether he's an addict or not there still needs to be a consequence for his actions, along with some form of treatment and rehabilitation.

You wouldn't let off an alcoholic for drink driving, just because he was an addict.

Not really... he has been diagnosed as an addict (otherwise they wouldn't have reduced the ban). You can't just say 'I'm an addict' and that's the extent of a diagnosis, and if it was the extent of it then that in itself is flawed and needs to be reviewed, because it belittles what is a real problem if that's the case.

He should be given help, not made an example of and punished in my view. It's a real societal problem and to be treated with such disregard is a disgrace.

Driving drunk is breaking the laws of the land... gambling is just breaking football rules which are actually designed for another reason (to stop match fixing, not for any wider implication...and they're ultimately flawed if they don't factor in those who have illnesses). He hasn't broken the laws of the land (and lets be honest, drink driving isn't about protecting others more than the person drinking and driving), he's broken some ill-thought out arbitrary rules because he is ill.

This was a good opportunity for the PL to take a real issue and make it a talking point for the right reason to encourage others to seek help who are suffering. Instead, it's been poorly handled.

[DenziMart]

So he was betting on his own team to lose? The fact he wasn't playing is irrelevant. He has insider knowledge. He knows which players are going through treatment with physios that other don't, he knows which players in training are just going through the motions or are having personal issues which others don't, so that gives him an advantage.
Also, what's to stop him influencing one of his mates who is playing to concede a goal or miss a penalty so they both make some cash.

Aside from that, how would people on this forum feel if they heard Scamacca was having punts on us losing games? Does it make it OK because he's not been playing? I don't think so and I'd imagine some of his team-mates would take exception to it.

8 months seems pretty fair to me.

[Aztec Hammer]

So he was betting on his own team to lose? The fact he wasn't playing is irrelevant. He has insider knowledge. He knows which players are going through treatment with physios that other don't, he knows which players in training are just going through the motions or are having personal issues which others don't, so that gives him an advantage.
Also, what's to stop him influencing one of his mates who is playing to concede a goal or miss a penalty so they both make some cash.

Aside from that, how would people on this forum feel if they heard Scamacca was having punts on us losing games? Does it make it OK because he's not been playing? I don't think so and I'd imagine some of his team-mates would take exception to it.

8 months seems pretty fair to me.

Yep, it's an incredibly serious offence. I think 8 months is too lenient.

[westlondonhammer]

So he was betting on his own team to lose? The fact he wasn't playing is irrelevant. He has insider knowledge. He knows which players are going through treatment with physios that other don't, he knows which players in training are just going through the motions or are having personal issues which others don't, so that gives him an advantage.
Also, what's to stop him influencing one of his mates who is playing to concede a goal or miss a penalty so they both make some cash.

Aside from that, how would people on this forum feel if they heard Scamacca was having punts on us losing games? Does it make it OK because he's not been playing? I don't think so and I'd imagine some of his team-mates would take exception to it.

8 months seems pretty fair to me.

He is suffering from an illness...

If Scamacca was suffering from an illness, I'd prefer him to get help to be honest than make it about my ego.

[1895Hammer]

Yep, it's an incredibly serious offence. I think 8 months is too lenient.

The FA have to discourage betting by participating players, and they have little option beyond a significant ban to send that message. However in parallel they should be insisting Toney undertakes some form of therapy, he suffers from an addiction and needs support. Maybe they’d have been better issuing a reduced ban on the grounds he undergoes proper treatment and goes public with that to push others to seek help?

[westlondonhammer]

The FA have to discourage betting by participating players, and they have little option beyond a significant ban to send that message. However in parallel they should be insisting Toney undertakes some form of therapy, he suffers from an addiction and needs support. Maybe they’d have been better issuing a reduced ban on the grounds he undergoes proper treatment and goes public with that to push others to seek help?

Instead they've sent a very different message.

One of a lack of compassion around a serious issue.

[smuts]

He has to have some form of punishment even if he has got a gambling illlness.

You can't have professionals knowing that they can gamble on games they are involved in with no repercussions. Harsh but it's the only way.

If for arguments sake, one of our players in the final kicked the ball into his own net and it come to light later on it was because he bet on a Fiorentina win, you couldn't just shrug it off "oh well, he was ill".

It's a difficult subject and I've seen friends lives ripped apart over gambling, but in the world of professional sport you can't have it repercussion free, especially for a PL player earning 50k plus a week.

I have every sympathy with Toney and hope he is getting the help he needs.

[westlondonhammer]

He has to have some form of punishment even if he has got a gambling illlness.

You can't have professionals knowing that they can gamble on games they are involved in with no repercussions. Harsh but it's the only way.

If for arguments sake, one of our players in the final kicked the ball into his own net and it come to light later on it was because he bet on a Fiorentina win, you couldn't just shrug it off "oh well, he was ill".

It's a difficult subject and I've seen friends lives ripped apart over gambling, but in the world of professional sport you can't have it repercussion free, especially for a PL player earning 50k plus a week.

I have every sympathy with Toney and hope he is getting the help he needs.

I hear that... it feels like the profession is being prioritised over the human by the PL.

There is limited tolerance or compassion being shown for this illness because he is a footballer...i.e., as a footballer you're not allowed to be sick in this way so we'll punish you for it. Ultimately it forces footballers (of which I'm sure there are a few) to hide the illness because of the repercussions rather than seek help (which in turns potentially makes the problem worse). It's the wrong message and not going to eliminate the problem, just make it worse.

It basically undermines it as an illness in the profession and wider society... when as you say, it's quite destructive problem.

[Bubbles Fortuna]

He also allegedly passed on information regarding starting 11s to his mates, which I'd argue is worse than betting on himself to win or score.

It's essentially insider trading which carries a jail sentence.

[smuts]

Gambling addiction is an illness but one that can't get you off scott free from breaking strict rules in your profession.

[DenziMart]

He is suffering from an illness...

If Scamacca was suffering from an illness, I'd prefer him to get help to be honest than make it about my ego.

Thankfully he is getting help. Brentford have said they will do everything possible to support him which is the right thing to do.
I expect the FA are fully aware he is getting the help he needs, but there still needs to be a strong deterrent to stop others from doing the same.
Hopefully others will see this and not make the same mistake.

[westlondonhammer]

Gambling addiction is an illness but one that can't get you off scott free from breaking strict rules in your profession.

The strict rules are wrong in my view...

He's not really getting off scott free either way for breaking the rules because of his illness.

[westlondonhammer]

Thankfully he is getting help. Brentford have said they will do everything possible to support him which is the right thing to do.
I expect the FA are fully aware he is getting the help he needs, but there still needs to be a strong deterrent to stop others from doing the same.
Hopefully others will see this and not make the same mistake.

The same mistake of getting an illness?

[moore_bobby]

I hear that... it feels like the profession is being prioritised over the human by the PL.

There is limited tolerance or compassion being shown for this illness because he is a footballer...i.e., as a footballer you're not allowed to be sick in this way so we'll punish you for it. Ultimately it forces footballers (of which I'm sure there are a few) to hide the illness because of the repercussions rather than seek help (which in turns potentially makes the problem worse). It's the wrong message and not going to eliminate the problem, just make it worse.

It basically undermines it as an illness in the profession and wider society... when as you say, it's quite destructive problem.

He's not being punished for his illness. He is totally allowed to bet on many things and he would not be banned. It's because he bet on his team/sport... That is naughty and should be punished. If he has an addiction/illness, the getting help for it should occur and has absolutely nothing to do with possible cheating (i.e. betting on his own team/sport). I don't think conflating addiction with cheating is valid or helpful to anyone, including him. Moreover, he he should be punished for being a muppet/dipstick and making the bets himself.

[DenziMart]

The same mistake of getting an illness?

The mistake of betting on football when he was free to bet on horses, rugby, cricket or any other sport.

[r99c]

Speaking as someone with a gambling problem, it's extremely difficult to not lapse/relapse. Therefore to also ban Toney from training/behind the scenes stuff is a disgrace. People need support. What he does in training etc won't make any difference to the competition.

If anyone has any questions around gambling problems etc and the brain chemistry etc around it, feel free to drop me a DM.

That said, the ban from actually playing is fine. He could gamble on other stuff if he wanted rather than football where inside information would be helpful. However, in horse racing inside info is rife and it's fine, but then we get into another argument about whether bookmakers should be allowed to ban winners etc. Personally, I think the football ban is fine. Deterrents are obviously required for this kind of thing.

The ban from training with teammates though? Southgate is bang on, it's a joke.