The KUMB Ancient History Corner

[stouffer]

The Celts came from an area around Switzerland.It's the culture,art etc that spread.Probably by migrations and trade.

[Junco Partner]

Yeah, that's true. The Celtic culture spread far from the Swiss-Austrian-Eastern France homeland. Galatia in modern day Turkey was Celtic, like Galicia in North Western Spain, also Southern Portugal, footholds on the Northern Black Sea, The Balkans and the Lower Rhine. They tended to 'Celtify' existing peoples with their strong and adaptable culture. Similar happened in the British Archipelago.

[Toulouse_Iron]

It has been agreed that it does bear a slight resemblance to the language spoken around the Caucuses region, particularly Chechen which kind of proves it's a descendent language of Indo-European.

Slight resemblance is right but not enough to suggest a link in a linguistic sense. The Basque-Caucasus link theory emerged in the early 20th century and gained some traction into the 40s/50s but the methods used to demonstrate it were iffy and led to very different conclusions from different people.
Current thinking tends to be that, while both Basque and the various Caucasian languages share some non Indo-European traits, this is not sufficient to point to a common ancestor. We can say with a degree of certainty that they are both pre-indo-European. Genetic evidence shows no clear link between to 2 regions either. They may have a similr history due to their topology: mountainous regions ignored as unsuitable by migrating indo europeans ..

Interesting though, innit?

[Shabu]

Nah, the Celts/Gaels were invaders from about 600 BC and supplanted/assimilated with the previous inhabitants across the British Isles.

The first Britons after the ice retreated (c6,000 BC) are an unknown culture, named now as Beaker People, and they loved a henge and a stone circle.

The Celts developed their own British forms of Celtic artwork and somewhere along the line split into two dialect groups - Goidelic, which developed in Ireland, Isle of Man and Western Scotland; and Brythonic, spoken across southern Britain, Cornwall, Wales and Cumbria. Pictish was closer to Brythonic and survived in North Eastern Britain above the Forth until after the Romans arrived.

OK. So there was a group of people here long before (several thousand years) the Celts. And they are the ones that built Stonehenge.

Then the Celts arrived a few centuries before the Romans. Is that correct?

[Cockneyboy311]

Great thread.

Learning a lot here so thanks gentleman. Keep it coming.

[Junco Partner]

OK. So there was a group of people here long before (several thousand years) the Celts. And they are the ones that built Stonehenge.

Then the Celts arrived a few centuries before the Romans. Is that correct?

Yes, broadly speaking.

Taking the end of the last Ice Age as a starting point makes sense, otherwise you can go back 970,000 years to some humanoid remains in Happisburgh Beach, Norfolk. So, circa 10,000 BC with the ice retreating and the archipelago still a peninsula of Europe the first Homo-Sapiens hunted their way across a continuous landmass including Doggerland.

By 6,000 BC with rising temperatures and following the Storegga Slide all land bridges between Ireland and Britain and Britain and the continent were submerged and the British Isles were formed in a recognisable shape we know today. The folk left on the new islands became the first 'Britons', and by 2,500 BC the construction of henges and stone circles was getting into full swing.

Research points to the henge & circle building spreading south from Orkney right across Britain and Ireland, which is not how we often think of cultural progress, we are conditioned to think it spreads from Europe & the south to the north.

Agriculture had taken root by then & western tin mines were known to ancient Greeks and Phoenicians who traded with them, so it is wrong to think them as isolated 'cavemen'. Some of the designs and motifs associated with Celts - the 3 legged Manx flag - actually predate the Celts arrival. But by 600 BC the waves of Celtic arrivals brought technology, art, religion and language that became overlayed onto the existing population.

Interestingly, the Picts probably have the strongest claim on being the last 'indigenous' Britons, they remained untouched by the southern Celts like the 'Belgae' and 'Parisi' who were migratory extensions of continental tribes, escaping Roman expansion and Teutonic tribes from the east.

[vietnammer]

On the 'Picts' ( 'Picti', a Roman term for 'painted'), there were also a bunch the Romans termed 'Attecotii' in north eastern Scotland and practically nothing was known or handed down except that they definitely didn't speak a Celtic language. And they were 'dark' people.
There were languages spoken in Europe that were pre-Celtic, Basque (Euskara) is a surviving example. Linguists (a small minority) have tried to link Basque to Moorish, North African languages but no-one much accepts the theory so it's big fat 'dunno'. It's been very much assimilated with Spanish over the years anyway. There have been attempts to link it with Phoenician (which survives in some Spanish place names) which was a Semitic language (like Arabic/Hebrew) originating in the Lebanon and was the language of the Carthaginians.

Thing about Celtic is that it's become accepted that it, too, came into Europe from the East, on the evidence of cultural remains of pottery called 'Bell-Beaker'. I may have read this wrong so stand to be corrected.

I like the theory that 'Eeny, Meeny, Miney Mo' is a survival of a pre-Celtic counting system, but it seems scholars see that as fanciful.

Yorkshire had 'Yan Tan Tether Mether Pip' as a way of counting sheep.

Up the Ammers.

[woodgreenspur]

Nah, the Celts/Gaels were invaders from about 600 BC and supplanted/assimilated with the previous inhabitants across the British Isles.

The first Britons after the ice retreated (c6,000 BC) are an unknown culture, named now as Beaker People, and they loved a henge and a stone circle.

The Celts developed their own British forms of Celtic artwork and somewhere along the line split into two dialect groups - Goidelic, which developed in Ireland, Isle of Man and Western Scotland; and Brythonic, spoken across southern Britain, Cornwall, Wales and Cumbria. Pictish was closer to Brythonic and survived in North Eastern Britain above the Forth until after the Romans arrived.

Modern school of thought according to a good few on Quora is that the Irish,Scottish, Cornish Manx and Bretons aren't Celtic. It was a mistake made due to a few similar words in the languages. Ironically the only place in these Islands that real Celts ever settled was the south east of England. Not sure I totally believe it,but interesting nonetheless.

[stouffer]

There was a segment on QI about this.The word Celt wasn't used until,I think the 18th or possibly 19th century.
I believe it was a way of spreading nationalism among our "Celtic" neighbours.
I'll have to try and find it now.

[woodgreenspur]

There was a segment on QI about this.The word Celt wasn't used until,I think the 18th or possibly 19th century.
I believe it was a way of spreading nationalism among our "Celtic" neighbours.
I'll have to try and find it now.

Yes,that was mentioned by one of the fellas who made the points I stated above. It's a relatively new term.

[The Old Man of Storr]

Went for a drive and walks round where we're staying yesterday -

Saw a few strongholds dotted about the place - Skelbo Castle was the nearest [ about 2 miles away ] -

https://www.livebreathescotland.com/skelbo-castle/

Dunrobin Castle , a visitor attraction and home to the Earl of Sutherland looked grand but wasn't open till April -

http://www.dunrobincastle.co.uk/

Sutherland is well worth a visit if anyone here is of the inclination -

[vietnammer]

There's a British film made in the 40's/50's that showed how Cornish and Breton people realised how close they were, culturally. Mont St.Michel (Britanny) and St.Michael's Mount (outside Penzance) being an obvious one, but also town names (Cornwaille) leaving more than clues. In the film it came down to a style of wrestling. I knew two brothers down that way with the surname 'Le Breton'. I think the village names also carry echoes of Celtic Christanity (Saints you've never heard of) so, contrary to the above, linguistically they were very much the same people.

To harp on the broader 'Celtic' culture in Europe, someone mentioned the migration of Celts into what was termed 'Asia Minor', giving rise to Galata (and the footy team Galatasaray), but there are apparently root-words like the rivers Afton (Ireland), Avon (England) and Vienna (Austria). There's also a lot of ginger dudes in Turkey (no piss jokes) but then many Jewish people of East European origin are ginger-haired too (just something I've noticed meself).

Think the study of the migration of people in ancient/pre-history is fascinating whilst also leaving huge questions. Indo-European language (mentioned by GCRO) is the most attested, like how do you get 'Dottar' (un-married woman) in Persian, Dottir (Icelandic) and 'daughter'. The term 'Aryan' (etymologically linked to 'Iran') was picked up by Nazi pseudo-scholars and twisted into blond haired and blue eyed people and 'racial purity'. No-one knows what language the Huns spoke (apart from surviving family names) and they've been linked to a people who clashed with the Chinese Empire (Xiongnu) but it's all hypotheses. There have been attempts to link them with Finnish and Hungarian languages (and, believe it or not, Japanese and Korean) but,again, most scholars blow a raspberry at that, and imagine that those people just grouped together, probably speaking a mixture of languages from Asia.

f*** me, I hope we beat Southampton

[The Old Man of Storr]

Hello Mate,

Welcome back.

What's the difference between Welsh, Gaelic & Celtic?

Are they all forms of a similar language or very different? You say Welsh was spoken up in Dumbarton but isn't that just Celtic?

Dialect may have played its part and I'm not sure how much we really know about those times -

There are many examples of Welsh or Old Welsh place names as far north as Scotland and present day Northumberland -

This may be of help -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hen_Ogledd

[Monkeybubbles]

I have nothing to contribute, but I'm finding this thread fascinating.

[Junco Partner]

Modern school of thought according to a good few on Quora is that the Irish,Scottish, Cornish Manx and Bretons aren't Celtic. It was a mistake made due to a few similar words in the languages. Ironically the only place in these Islands that real Celts ever settled was the south east of England. Not sure I totally believe it,but interesting nonetheless.

That's a plausible theory I reckon. The Cantiaci/Cantii give Kent its name. Caesar named the tribes of the south after the similar tribes he knew on the continent. Theses tribes had supported their kin militarily against him and this provoked his first sortie across the channel in 55 BC.

I think the term 'Celt' can be considered a linguistic/cultural label rather like 'Latin' - as in Latin can cover half-a-dozen European languages and an underlying Christian/classical culture. Celt is similar with loosely related languages/dialects, a noticeable artistic theme (seen in the Battersea Shield for example) and a mysterious culture now shrouded in the mists of time.

What it's not is a race or even an ethnicity, there is no Celt genome that is consistent across all the Celtic areas from Portugal to Scotland to Turkey, there's not even a consistent gene across Ireland or Wales. It seems to be more a transmission of language, lifestyle, trade, religion, myths and dress. The locals 'Celtified' and added their own local twist rather than being completely destroyed or replaced.

Reading that the first record of 'Keltoi' is from 5th Century BC Greece referring to a people at the source of the Danube in the Celt heartland of Austria/Switzerland. Julius Caesar reported that the Gauls called themselves 'Celts', but the term didn't become a common English word until quite modern (18th Century) times. Fascinating all the same.

I'd prefer Lanzini or Fornals to get a run in our midfield now!

[The Old Man of Storr]

Lanzini ? He's Ancient History . Boom Boom .

[8ish]

I used to live in a place called Abbots Langley. Langley meant 'Long field' So this was the Abbots Long field. Next to it is Kings Langley which was the Kings Longfield

"-by" = farm or village

"-thwaite" = woodland clearing

"-kirk" = church

"-ness" = river mouth

"-toft" - house or building

Saxon place names:

"-ing" = people (usually preceded by the Saxon chieftain's name)

“-Leigh” or “-Ley” = a forest clearing

“Bury” = fortified place

“Ton” = farm or farming village

“Wich” or “Wick” = farm produce

“Burh” = town

“Ham” = village

Sussex = South Saxons
Essex = East Saxons
Wessex - West Saxons
Nosex = marriage
[/quote]

[8ish]

Some of you may find this interesting, a chap calledAlan Wilson has been researching ancient British history since the 70's.

I used to live in a place called Abbots Langley. Langley meant 'Long field' So this was the Abbots Long field. Next to it is Kings Langley which was the Kings Longfield

[Metal Hammer]

Good thread and far more interesting than the David Moyes one on the GD forum

[Shabu]

There's also a lot of ginger dudes in Turkey (no piss jokes) but then many Jewish people of East European origin are ginger-haired too (just something I've noticed meself).

The Vikings were in Istanbul & other parts of Turkey between the 8th & 11th centuries.