Match #47 (QF): England 1-1 Switzerland (1-1 AET) (5-3 Pens) (Saturday 6th July, 5pm)

[Cockneyboy311]

Southgate has been extremely lucky with draws over the last few tournaments. Every time we’ve come up against top quality opponents we’ve lost.

We may get past Holland as they are not as strong as they once were but in the final against Spain or France? No chance.

[alf git]

Each to their own. But I doubt there'd be too many folks willing to accept an argument that suggests a defence of Walker, Stones, Guehi and Trippier is better equipped than one featuring (your golden generation's) Cole, Ferdinand, Campbell/Terry and Neville.

Not having Terry. Never have, never will.

[Ethanadict]

England reminds me of watching Man Utd last season. Seemingly no plan, but enough star players chucked onto the pitch in the hope of making things happen. And now and again they do happen.

[TheHandOfDog]

Cole Ferdinand Campbell Neville is one of the best back 4's of all time in International football.
Manager let us down then. Southgate would win tournies with that golden generation IMO, it suited his style of play more.

[GeeGee78]

Cole Ferdinand Campbell Neville is one of the best back 4's of all time in International football.
Manager let us down then. Southgate would win tournies with that golden generation IMO, it suited his style of play more.

One of - other teams had Maldini, Cannavaro, Nesta, cant remember the right back - Zambrotta in 2006?
Argies take a pick - Sensini, Samuel, Zanetti, Sorin, Milito -

The above are great players, but other teams had many of them.

England now has without doubt some of the elite players in Europe who happen to be English not the best English players who are one of the best in Europe.

A slight but huge difference IMO.

[GeeGee78]

Southgate has been extremely lucky with draws over the last few tournaments. Every time we’ve come up against top quality opponents we’ve lost.

We may get past Holland as they are not as strong as they once were but in the final against Spain or France? No chance.

All draws are lucky to some extend but he also has one of the best squads England has ever had and some of the best players they have ever had. So youre stronger than ever.

Italy was enormously lucky with the draw in 2006.
I dont agree with Southgates mentality I think he needs to play with more risk, England can easily play the way Spain does but I understand what he is doing by keeping it tight and always having a chance to win. it does work due to the strength of the squad (see France), but this squad can be a stronger force with more balance attacking other than give to Saka

[Wilko1304]

It’s why I agree with the best manager, not best tactical manager.

The fact is England nearly always have teams of players that would be worthy winners of international tournaments. But making progress deep into tournaments has rarely been achieved with consistency.

I think international football is different to club football. Reminds me that James Horncastle boasted of Spaletti being one of the best coaches at the tournament. He sure was, but it’s a different environment. Can’t drill them into systems, can’t force loyalty, much less longevity in the squads and relationships.

Southgate has done a fantastic job of managing the national team. You have to manage the media, the ethos, make players comfortable and give them a platform to perform. He’s done all that. Were he as astute tactically as an elite manager, we win the last Euro, we maybe win the World Cup. Other England managers haven’t been able to get us there, the squad and environment never quite set up to achieve it.

His weakness, as far as I can see it, is that in-game management. He’s not completely awful, he couldn’t be, but it means he’ll make mistakes. And it’s an easier one for fans to call out because it’s the visible one; he’s good at things we don’t see and have to accept he’s done without knowing.

I think it’s telling that Robson is listed above him. I was 1 at World Cup 90, so I don’t remember it (shocker), but it seems like a hindsight thing to suggest he did anything but stumble to that semi-final. Roundly awful for most of it, so far as I’ve read and been told.

Southgate will look much better once he’s gone. Much like Moyes, you have to make sure you don’t assess the whole time just by the ending. Southgate’s England have been better than this for 90% of his tenure than they are showing now. And they’re still in the semis.

[Morocco Mole]

That’s fair Wilko. Good post.

[GeeGee78]

Southgate has done a fantastic job of managing the national team. You have to manage the media, the ethos, make players comfortable and give them a platform to perform. He’s done all that. Were he as astute tactically as an elite manager, we win the last Euro, we maybe win the World Cup. Other England managers haven’t been able to get us there, the squad and environment never quite set up to achieve it.

His weakness, as far as I can see it, is that in-game management. He’s not completely awful, he couldn’t be, but it means he’ll make mistakes. And it’s an easier one for fans to call out because it’s the visible one; he’s good at things we don’t see and have to accept he’s done without knowing.

I think it’s telling that Robson is listed above him. I was 1 at World Cup 90, so I don’t remember it (shocker), but it seems like a hindsight thing to suggest he did anything but stumble to that semi-final. Roundly awful for most of it, so far as I’ve read and been told.

He has done all that and for that he has definitely done a great job. The England manager job is not easy.
I do contend thought that other managers have simply had a good squad not the best players in Europe.

Re Italia 90, just a drab defensive tournament all around. Yes England were ordinary, almost all teams were really, and part of that was the draw which helped a tiny bit.

However, other teams were stacked in comparison - England had good players but not the best players. So they started to play better and probably over achieved - squad wise you had Brazil, Italy, Holland, Yugoslavia, Germany at a minimum all had better squads and players - not to mention Argentina, Belgium, the Soviets were all stacked. Semi Final was a good shout.

The draws and relative strength to other nations matters and changes depending on the era - you can argue Southgate has met expectations rather than exceeded them - the way he has done it is sleep inducing but he has done it.

He has been lucky, but I could argue that he has instilled a belief in the players too that allows them to get lucky, they are never out of it, their methods work (regardless of what we think about them). That isnt easy to do either.

[EvilC]

Not having Terry. Never have, never will.

Agree, not at international level.

[DusseldorfHammer]

Southgate has build the platform for England to make it to the Semis of every tournament. That's a hell of an achievement. Especially as most of his players come from different clubs; no chance of building a clear block.

[Hammer.CA]

For anyone interested, I’ve got 10 England v Switzerland match scarves left and I’m having 30 England v Netherlands semi final scarves, 10 are already sold.
Message me for details.

[sutts07]

Southgate has been extremely lucky with draws over the last few tournaments. Every time we’ve come up against top quality opponents we’ve lost.

We may get past Holland as they are not as strong as they once were but in the final against Spain or France? No chance.

I think that is a touch harsh, you can claim it is factually correct of course, but we have gone really close in the last two, and both Italy and France were fortunate to beat us. Kane's pen miss cost us massively in the France game in Qatar and I think we'd have gone on to win that had we pulled level in the 83rd min. We'd have been buzzing.

And in the Italy game we started well and were the better team for large parts of the game, but just took our foot off the gas as we tend to do so often. You can even go back to the Croatia game out in Russia and say the same.

This side is very capable of beating Netherlands, France and Spain. They just need to back themselves and give it a go!

It was even the same in this game against the Swiss. We were well on top at half time. Pressign high, making them make errors and in total control of the middle. Second half we came out and sat 30 yards deeper and invited pressure.

[Wilko1304]

He has done all that and for that he has definitely done a great job. The England manager job is not easy.
I do contend thought that other managers have simply had a good squad not the best players in Europe.

But would it not be fair to say that, at least since 96, I think we’ve been close to a match to any best team in the world in individuals? Gazza, Seaman and Shearer, with Sheringham, Mcmanaman, Ince, Adams, G Neville maybe a level below. Certainly, we’ve had capable enough players that winning any tournament since then wouldn’t have been a major surprise.

And, when comparing being slightly behind in 1990, I’d bet we were a lot further ahead of many other countries. I’d be pretty comfortable in saying the overall standard of teams has gone up. For my money, Scotland were the worst team there. And they have a handful of pretty good players. There seems less cannon fodder, and I’d say that’s true of Euro and World Cup. The rise of African football, how players are plucked from all over the world by big machines, coaching improvements.

I’m plenty critical, like I was with Moyes, but even if you don’t rate him, I think he’s probably the most important manager since ‘66. One got England to win, the other got England to get over themselves and fix a culture breeding failure.

[sendô]

Lets be honest, we’ve been mostly gash in about every tournament I can remember. I think it’s emotions rather than actual ability clouding our judgement.

The first tournament I properly remember is USA 94.

USA 94 - DNQ
Euro 96 - one good game vs the Dutch. We were poor vs the Swiss and the Jocks in the group. In fact McAllister missed a pen when it was 1-0 before Gazza’s moment of genius from a speculative punt up field. Spain in the QF was drab, the Germany semi pure emotion but a loss.
France 98 - runner up to Romania after losing to them in the group put us against the Argies in the 2nd round. Beckhams silly kick cost us. It was Owen’s wonder goal that tournament is remembered for but we generally werent good.
Euro 2000 out in the groups to Romania and Portugal after losing to both.
WC 2002 we were average. Beat Argentina narrowly in the group but draws with Sweden and Nigeria again saw us runner up. We thrashed Denmark, our one good game again and we thought it was game on. I certainly did, I was 18 and day drunk out in Southend. Ronaldinho showed us up.
Euro 2004 we had a good group game against France but still threw it away at the end. Rooney came along and played great as we pumped Switzerland and Croatia but then got injured as we again came runner up and had to face Portugal rather than Greece.
Germany 2006 - the golden generation. We won the group, that draw with Sweden when Joe Cole scored that volley and Owen got injured leaving us with only Crouch and Rooney up front or a 17 year old work experience lad. We got past the mighty Ecuador before Portugal again on pens saw us off, this time Rooney seeing red.
Euro 2008 didn’t even qualify, Croatia seeing off the wally with the brolly.
South Africa 2010 - Rob Green had that moment as the yanks famously beat us 1-1. A goalless draw with Algeria and a narrow win over Slovenia saw us runner up again and easily dispatched by a rampant Germany who scored 4, Lampards goal/no goal notwithstanding.
Euro 2012 - topped the group but out on pens to Italy after a 0-0. I have no memory of any games that tournameng.
Brasil 2014 - bottom of the group, getting done over by Costa Rica and Uruguay.
Euro 2016. Lost to Iceland in the second round.

[dasnutnock3]

Euro 2012 - topped the group but out on pens to Italy after a 0-0. I have no memory of any games that tournameng.

Highlight was yelling "YOU F*CKING DONKEY" at Andy Carroll, just before he leaped like Michael Jordan to send a thumping header past the Swedes.

[Larrakeyah Hammer]

I work with a Greek guy who says winning in 2004 was one of the greatest periods of his life

He knows Greece weren’t the best team or played the best football
Does he care , No couldn’t give a ****

[stu1]

I work with a Greek guy who says winning in 2004 was one of the greatest periods of his life

He knows Greece weren’t the best team or played the best football
Does he care , No couldn’t give a ****

Whilst I understand the point you’re making, it’s a bit different for a massive underdog like Greece ****housing their way to a tournament win, compared to this England team which full to the brim with attacking quality.

The fact our first shots on target in the last two games have come in the 95th and 80th minute is staggering, especially given we were 1-0 down to Slovakia for 75 odd minutes in one.

I can take ****housing our way through a final, or even a couple of the knock-out games when playing good opposition, but to stink out every game when playing such inferior opposition, it just takes a bit of the joy out of it for me. I barely reacted to either goal against Switzerland and missed pretty much the whole second half against Denmark because I decided I’d rather tidy the house it was that bad! Yet historically I’ve been a big England fan.

[stu1]

.

[Clucking Bell]

For me, the big difference now versus the tournaments say from Spain in 82 through to the 2016 Euros is that we've got a good 15 - 20 players who would start for any of our peer nations. Furthermore, you could argue that a good handful of these are more or less the best in the world in their position.

In some of the previous tournaments we've had players (for example, Terry Fenwick in Mexico '86) who shouldn't have been within a hundred miles of getting an England shirt and played as if the manager had simply drawn their name out of a hat. Bobby Robson and Terry Venables were both handicapped by having two or three less than stellar options in certain positions.

I think Southgate's big problem is that he over-estimates the adaptability of his favoured players and you can level the same accusation at almost every England manager since Venables. Sven tried to get Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard and Beckham into the same team and this sort of **** just doesn't ****ing work: you can't play four attacking midfielders and expect them to take it in turns to play in the holding role.

Personally, I think Ramsey was quite lucky in that he had decent options in every position as well as having at least four absolutely world class players. He was also sensible enough to play everyone in their correct position and ballsy enough to drop one of the best strikers the country has ever produced for a converted midfielder who just happened to bang in a hat-trick in the final.

Southgate needs to decide on a formation and pick the best of his options to play in that formation. If Shaw is fit, he should start and this will help Foden. I'd also consider starting Toney or Watkins and bringing Kane on for the last twenty. If Foden or Saka run out of steam, we've got great replacements and something that's a bit different in Gordon and Bowen. I think we're very close to being able to win this but, it's starting to look as if that will be dependent on Shaw being able to play the next two games/